Caribbean Spanish colonial cuphilt rapier

M ELEY · 13th May 2013, 06:13 PM

Hello Fernando. Good to hear from you! I thought this one might catch your attention. Forgive me, as I have used the wrong term in my description (

). I was referring to the absence of the overlap along the rim of the bowl , called ? rompas? Not the guardopovlo, of which mine has none. I was looking back over the fine specimens you have posted over the years, but could not find the term for the controversial rim to catch the opponent's blade (I believe the past consensus on this is that the rompas might deflect the point momentarily in battle at best).

Oh, BTW, now I am telling you I am "a real sword collector!"-

fernando · 13th May 2013, 07:27 PM

The term is rompe-puntas (in portuguese quebra pontas)... in other words point breaker.
I belong to the team skeptical about such feature purpose corresponding to what it is claimed for; even Zorro would sweat his mask to catch a blade point in that narrow groove

.
My wishing to see a picture of the bowl interior was to check whether there are some sword smiths mark in there.

M ELEY · 14th May 2013, 12:47 PM

No, unfortunately there are no markings or symbols in the bowl or on the tang. Not to get off the subject, but on my Spanish bilbo, there is a marking of an arrow, complete with feathers, pointing downwards. Would you happen to know that symbol, my friend? The blade is the typical six-sided affair with a rounded tip. Were the blades on bilbos and cuphilts ever made by the German sword smiths, like in England? I know that is an odd question, but it seems that many countries were importing from that region of the world back then-

fernando · 14th May 2013, 01:30 PM

I wouldn't know that mark, but i guess there was a rather active exchange between Toledo and Solingen blades back in that period ... and not only

M ELEY · 14th May 2013, 10:48 PM

Just curious. The arrow marking reminded me of a German smith mark I had seen once. I know Solingen sword blades went to the Spanish colonies and were indoctrinated into Spanish pieces by local smiths. I used to have that broadsword ( a colonial piece with brass lion hilt) with the Solingen marking, German smith's or merchant's names and the typical Span motto 'Do not draw me without reason, etc, etc). The three merchants on the blade had some history to them. My research showed that they mad made their way to S. America ca.1800-05 and were selling their crafts to local residents. I kind of doubted that Solingen blades would have been used on a piece made in the main country of Spain, as Toledo made some of the best pieces in the world at that time and were their competitor.

fernando · 17th May 2013, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I kind of doubted that Solingen blades would have been used on a piece made in the main country of Spain, as Toledo made some of the best pieces in the world at that time and were their competitor.

You know the concept of best, Mark. It is like Miss World election. They determine who is the best among the ones brought up to contest; but we all know girls out there that would beat those elected by miles.
Which blades were best ... Toledo, Solingen (Passau), or even those from other 'no name' origins ?
But i bet the key point here is that of a statistic basis. Spain had huge sword demands due to their colonies occupation. This would be a coherent explanation for blades having to be massively imported (from Solingen) to cope with their needs. This would make it plausible that a private sword would be (all) made in Toledo and setups with Solingen blades were more often found in Military and New World examples.
Hope this makes some sense; no scholar knowledge here

.

Jim McDougall · 17th May 2013, 07:21 PM

Absolutely perfectly explained Nando!
The Toledo reputation long established had remained, while the Castilian economy was in virtual collapse in the 17th and well through 18th. The German smiths, i.e. Coel, had also been present among Spanish makers, but the industry itself basically deferred to Solingen.

Regarding the arrow mark on the bilbo, while I can only estimate without an image, I would suggest that it may have developed from that mark of crossed arrows used by J Konigs (1587-1607) or further to the other chronology the Clauberg group (1847-1866). Obviously the 'bilbo' as a military 'arming' type sword seems to have been used from late in the first half of the 18th c. into the 19th, and saw extensive Spanish colonial use in Cuba, and Gulf regions with eventual move into interior New Spain.
It has been well established that Solingen produced many blades for the Spanish and destined for colonial mounts from around 1760s possibly even earlier. Many were of course those with 'Spanish motto' and the familiar hexagon section 'dragoon' blades.

I dont know which German smiths were in the Americas, but am curious on more on this. Perhaps related to Eickhorn who was a main supplier of swords and blades to Latin America by end of the 19thc.

Returning to this magnificent example arming rapier, I would say it likely is from first quarter 18th c. and as noted certainly Caribbean. While obviously the hilt is well crafted it is known that Spanish artisans were by this time well established in the ports of call on the Spanish Main.
To add a dash of literary romanticism

this is the period immediately following the end of the 'Golden Age' of piracy, and in regions where the Spanish Main was ever active, well within that of the immortal work of Stevenson, "Treasure Island". Spanish officers in the New World still used these kinds of swords while at sea as well as ashore, and it is well known despite the often noted 'cavalry' character in blade length. I believe this was largely in that officers used swords in directing and command, and these were well visible, as officers were not typically in the melee where short, stout blades were more effective.

Well done Captain Mark!!!

13th May 2013, 06:13 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Hello Fernando. Good to hear from you! I thought this one might catch your attention. Forgive me, as I have used the wrong term in my description ( ). I was referring to the absence of the overlap along the rim of the bowl , called ? rompas? Not the guardopovlo, of which mine has none. I was looking back over the fine specimens you have posted over the years, but could not find the term for the controversial rim to catch the opponent's blade (I believe the past consensus on this is that the rompas might deflect the point momentarily in battle at best). Oh, BTW, now I am telling you I am "a real sword collector!"-

13th May 2013, 07:27 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The term is rompe-puntas (in portuguese quebra pontas)... in other words point breaker. I belong to the team skeptical about such feature purpose corresponding to what it is claimed for; even Zorro would sweat his mask to catch a blade point in that narrow groove . My wishing to see a picture of the bowl interior was to check whether there are some sword smiths mark in there.

14th May 2013, 12:47 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	No, unfortunately there are no markings or symbols in the bowl or on the tang. Not to get off the subject, but on my Spanish bilbo, there is a marking of an arrow, complete with feathers, pointing downwards. Would you happen to know that symbol, my friend? The blade is the typical six-sided affair with a rounded tip. Were the blades on bilbos and cuphilts ever made by the German sword smiths, like in England? I know that is an odd question, but it seems that many countries were importing from that region of the world back then-

14th May 2013, 01:30 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I wouldn't know that mark, but i guess there was a rather active exchange between Toledo and Solingen blades back in that period ... and not only

14th May 2013, 10:48 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Just curious. The arrow marking reminded me of a German smith mark I had seen once. I know Solingen sword blades went to the Spanish colonies and were indoctrinated into Spanish pieces by local smiths. I used to have that broadsword ( a colonial piece with brass lion hilt) with the Solingen marking, German smith's or merchant's names and the typical Span motto 'Do not draw me without reason, etc, etc). The three merchants on the blade had some history to them. My research showed that they mad made their way to S. America ca.1800-05 and were selling their crafts to local residents. I kind of doubted that Solingen blades would have been used on a piece made in the main country of Spain, as Toledo made some of the best pieces in the world at that time and were their competitor.

17th May 2013, 07:21 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Absolutely perfectly explained Nando! The Toledo reputation long established had remained, while the Castilian economy was in virtual collapse in the 17th and well through 18th. The German smiths, i.e. Coel, had also been present among Spanish makers, but the industry itself basically deferred to Solingen. Regarding the arrow mark on the bilbo, while I can only estimate without an image, I would suggest that it may have developed from that mark of crossed arrows used by J Konigs (1587-1607) or further to the other chronology the Clauberg group (1847-1866). Obviously the 'bilbo' as a military 'arming' type sword seems to have been used from late in the first half of the 18th c. into the 19th, and saw extensive Spanish colonial use in Cuba, and Gulf regions with eventual move into interior New Spain. It has been well established that Solingen produced many blades for the Spanish and destined for colonial mounts from around 1760s possibly even earlier. Many were of course those with 'Spanish motto' and the familiar hexagon section 'dragoon' blades. I dont know which German smiths were in the Americas, but am curious on more on this. Perhaps related to Eickhorn who was a main supplier of swords and blades to Latin America by end of the 19thc. Returning to this magnificent example arming rapier, I would say it likely is from first quarter 18th c. and as noted certainly Caribbean. While obviously the hilt is well crafted it is known that Spanish artisans were by this time well established in the ports of call on the Spanish Main. To add a dash of literary romanticism this is the period immediately following the end of the 'Golden Age' of piracy, and in regions where the Spanish Main was ever active, well within that of the immortal work of Stevenson, "Treasure Island". Spanish officers in the New World still used these kinds of swords while at sea as well as ashore, and it is well known despite the often noted 'cavalry' character in blade length. I believe this was largely in that officers used swords in directing and command, and these were well visible, as officers were not typically in the melee where short, stout blades were more effective. Well done Captain Mark!!!