Islamic Crossbow?

B.I · 15th October 2005, 11:15 AM

i continue to be both impressed and staggered by the information uncovered on this post. none of the sources referenced are common, nor easily accessed and it shows the seriousness of the forum members.

fernando -
thank you for expanding your information. the reason i had let the post 'die out' is because we had uncovered a fair amount of information, and i was waiting for the researcher to come back from france to hand it over to him. he is very happy with the information, but jist needs 'back-up' if he is to use any of it. could be please tell me the source of your mention of the seljuks having crossbows, before the ottoman illustration.
thanks for the book link, and i will order a copy and hand it over (with an invoice!). the article marc found also referenced the crossbow with a number of spanish terms - the foot bow, the foreign bow and the complicated bow. the 'beast' is a good thing to look out for when i am picking through foreign texts to see what i am going to give in for translation.

aqtai -
this research was already started by someone, and he had found the british museum bowl and inserted it in his file. (i wasnt aware of this when i first started the post). still, a great find though and much appreciated.
also, the illumination you linked from david nicholles book is useful, even though its a seige engine. the concept is still similar and maybe this can be used in this manner. thanks.

marc -
as fernando said, a wealth of fabulous information.
i will track down the BL books next time i am there (including the french article you mentioned). it isnt easy getting things copied there, and i hope i can get the information i need without having to type it out myself (not an option - i am slow in english....but spanish!!!)
the kings chronicle in pdf is a great find and i will print it out and hand it in.
the article from the madrid university is fabulous (i think) and i have handed it in for translation. just picking out bits, it seems there is much direct information and i look forward to recieving it back in english. do you know the author?
i can easily get hold of a copy of nicholles book, as its on most of the arms libraries i use and i will chase it up. i have had some time off (playing of course) and so it will be a week or so before i can take more time off to pursue the information in places other than my computer, but i look forward to showing anything new here.
i look forward to the information you are sending (especially the frescoes - even in poor quality), when you have time. believe me, i understand how hard it is to fit in any extra research as i struggle myself.

agian, much appreciated to all.

fernando · 15th October 2005, 09:22 PM

Just look what i came across with:

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma25.htm

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma26.htm

It's a pitty, there's something wrong with the attachment uploader ... these pictures are great.

fernando · 17th October 2005, 09:54 AM

There you are

Aqtai · 17th October 2005, 11:57 AM

Nice pics Fernando.

The arabesque decoration is a bit "neutral" though, i.e. it doesn't look specifically Islamic. Do you have any more info about this fine weapon?

Marc · 17th October 2005, 07:54 PM

It's the Nasrid crossbow from the Archaeological Museum of Granada. Allegedly 14th - 15th c. At near 80 cm. long and 124 cm. wide, it's quite impressive, I must say...

fernando · 17th October 2005, 10:32 PM

If i remember well, B.I. is more interested in a determined model from a determined period, preferrably with pictures.
If the question were how soon in time did Muslims use crossbows, or how soon in time did Musliums make crossbows ( which is a different thing for the matter ), various apparently solid sources could be considered.
You have the Southern Italy Saracens, whom were not fond of the crossbow use, although their artisans used to produce them for Christian Forces:
http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...en_archers.htm
but you also have strong traces of Muslims using Crossbow versions against Christians, namely in the Reconquest period. I will try and attach herev the scanning of part of a letter, written in Latin, by an eye witness of the Conquest of Lisbon in 1147, where the Moors were already equiped with crossbows.
I keep searching the track of the so called moorish "Cuçalarab", a light crossbow from the Reconquest period, so eficient that the Christians have copied it for their own use.
Kind regards

fernando · 17th October 2005, 10:41 PM

Uploaders still not cooperating ... please see next posting

B.I · 18th October 2005, 06:39 PM

hi,
the nasrid crossbow is the only known example, and as marc says, it is only assumed as such, hence this post. the one in a private collection that is being researched owes its form and islamic heritage to the comparison of the nasrid piece. it is a great thing, but this question has never been directly followed through.
fernando, the last two pieces of informatipon are both great, and although neither proves that the crossbow was made and used by islamic warrior, without being directly influenced by the european version, it definately can class as ammunition that it was in use by the muslim armies.
both a great find.
i shall meet up with the researcher, and try and get the information he already has, to add to this posting, and will given in these last few pieces.
again, great work.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th October 2005, 09:41 PM

Hi,

Have a look at the illustration in Islamic Arms and Armour, edited by Robert Elgood. I know you have it, as you have shown the silver bottle on page 168. Have a look on page 31, the right side of the picture, I think I see one, maybe two crossbows – or should I put my 'glass eyes' on?

Eight to ninth century, would that be early enough?

15th October 2005, 11:15 AM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	OUTSTANDING! i continue to be both impressed and staggered by the information uncovered on this post. none of the sources referenced are common, nor easily accessed and it shows the seriousness of the forum members. fernando - thank you for expanding your information. the reason i had let the post 'die out' is because we had uncovered a fair amount of information, and i was waiting for the researcher to come back from france to hand it over to him. he is very happy with the information, but jist needs 'back-up' if he is to use any of it. could be please tell me the source of your mention of the seljuks having crossbows, before the ottoman illustration. thanks for the book link, and i will order a copy and hand it over (with an invoice!). the article marc found also referenced the crossbow with a number of spanish terms - the foot bow, the foreign bow and the complicated bow. the 'beast' is a good thing to look out for when i am picking through foreign texts to see what i am going to give in for translation. aqtai - this research was already started by someone, and he had found the british museum bowl and inserted it in his file. (i wasnt aware of this when i first started the post). still, a great find though and much appreciated. also, the illumination you linked from david nicholles book is useful, even though its a seige engine. the concept is still similar and maybe this can be used in this manner. thanks. marc - as fernando said, a wealth of fabulous information. i will track down the BL books next time i am there (including the french article you mentioned). it isnt easy getting things copied there, and i hope i can get the information i need without having to type it out myself (not an option - i am slow in english....but spanish!!!) the kings chronicle in pdf is a great find and i will print it out and hand it in. the article from the madrid university is fabulous (i think) and i have handed it in for translation. just picking out bits, it seems there is much direct information and i look forward to recieving it back in english. do you know the author? i can easily get hold of a copy of nicholles book, as its on most of the arms libraries i use and i will chase it up. i have had some time off (playing of course) and so it will be a week or so before i can take more time off to pursue the information in places other than my computer, but i look forward to showing anything new here. i look forward to the information you are sending (especially the frescoes - even in poor quality), when you have time. believe me, i understand how hard it is to fit in any extra research as i struggle myself. agian, much appreciated to all.

17th October 2005, 09:54 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There you are Attached Images

17th October 2005, 10:41 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Uploaders still not cooperating ... please see next posting Last edited by fernando; 17th October 2005 at 10:55 PM. Reason: wrong thing ... please skip

15th October 2005, 09:22 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Just look what i came across with: http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma25.htm http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma26.htm It's a pitty, there's something wrong with the attachment uploader ... these pictures are great.

17th October 2005, 11:57 AM	#4
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Nice pics Fernando. The arabesque decoration is a bit "neutral" though, i.e. it doesn't look specifically Islamic. Do you have any more info about this fine weapon?

17th October 2005, 07:54 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	It's the Nasrid crossbow from the Archaeological Museum of Granada. Allegedly 14th - 15th c. At near 80 cm. long and 124 cm. wide, it's quite impressive, I must say...

17th October 2005, 10:32 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If i remember well, B.I. is more interested in a determined model from a determined period, preferrably with pictures. If the question were how soon in time did Muslims use crossbows, or how soon in time did Musliums make crossbows ( which is a different thing for the matter ), various apparently solid sources could be considered. You have the Southern Italy Saracens, whom were not fond of the crossbow use, although their artisans used to produce them for Christian Forces: http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...en_archers.htm but you also have strong traces of Muslims using Crossbow versions against Christians, namely in the Reconquest period. I will try and attach herev the scanning of part of a letter, written in Latin, by an eye witness of the Conquest of Lisbon in 1147, where the Moors were already equiped with crossbows. I keep searching the track of the so called moorish "Cuçalarab", a light crossbow from the Reconquest period, so eficient that the Christians have copied it for their own use. Kind regards

18th October 2005, 06:39 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, the nasrid crossbow is the only known example, and as marc says, it is only assumed as such, hence this post. the one in a private collection that is being researched owes its form and islamic heritage to the comparison of the nasrid piece. it is a great thing, but this question has never been directly followed through. fernando, the last two pieces of informatipon are both great, and although neither proves that the crossbow was made and used by islamic warrior, without being directly influenced by the european version, it definately can class as ammunition that it was in use by the muslim armies. both a great find. i shall meet up with the researcher, and try and get the information he already has, to add to this posting, and will given in these last few pieces. again, great work.

19th October 2005, 09:41 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi, Have a look at the illustration in Islamic Arms and Armour, edited by Robert Elgood. I know you have it, as you have shown the silver bottle on page 168. Have a look on page 31, the right side of the picture, I think I see one, maybe two crossbows – or should I put my 'glass eyes' on? Eight to ninth century, would that be early enough?