Collecting:- opinions sought

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution Kai.

Probably anywhere that we look at any kind of collecting activity we will find different approaches to that activity. What I said in my initial post was this:-

"I've been in Solo over the last couple of months, and have been in contact with a different collecting environment than the one which applies to many of the contributors to discussion in this Forum."

The total environment encompasses many divisions, and those divisions give rise to many different approaches to a number of activities, one of the activities is collecting. I did not mean to imply that there was only one approach to collecting in Jawa, rather I intended to address the environment wherein this activity was practiced. I had observed a number of different approaches to the collection of keris, by several different persons, virtually one after another on the same day, within the space of probably no more than four hours. I witnessed one of those approaches when I was called upon to advise the daughter of a recently deceased relative of my daughter's husband on the prices to expect when she was disposing of her father's collection. Her father had adopted an approach to collecting that was of immense comfort and value to himself, but one which did not result in him leaving very much of value to his family.

This man's approach to the keris was absolutely Javanese in nature, and would probably not be understood by anybody who was not absolutely traditional Javanese. It would certainly not be understood by the new wave of Indonesian collectors who address the keris as an art object. I most sincerely doubt that any collector from any western environment would even be aware of the existence of the foundation upon which the deceased gentleman constructed his collection:- this collection is a product of the Javanese environment.

Thus, it was the environment that I was focussed on, and the act of collection, rather than keris and one's personal approach to that, which possibly has as much detailed variation as there are collectors. In addition I was thinking of "collection" in the widest possible terms, not only in respect of weaponry and keris.

I recognise that different people have different interests in their field of collecting. Since we seem to be moving more and more towards discussion of the collecting of the objects for which this Forum caters, I'm going to stop swimming against the tide and talk about the collection of the keris.

Sixty years ago when my grandfather ignited my interest in edged weapons and in keris in particular by gifting his small collection of edged weapons to me, my primary interest was typical of probably most 12 year olds:- brandishing and skewering imaginary foes. I even revived some ethnic weapons as functional hunting weapons --- a khukri as a knife for hunting feral pigs over dogs, and knife from N.W. India as a general purpose belt knife ( I re-hilted that one in American white oak).
I developed an interest in the culture, society, history and art of Jawa at a fairly early age, but that wasn't driven by the keris, it was driven by a movie that I cannot remember the name of that featured lots of scenes of Surabaya and roving around the islands.

Then I went through the "I don't want much in life, only every keris that was ever made". It took me a long time to grow up. By the 1960's and 1970's I was obsessed with the technology of the keris and long before Empu Suparman took me under his wing I had learnt to weld pamor and had made a couple of weapons, including one small keris, that displayed pamor.

Then in the period between 1978 and 1982 two remarkable things happened:- Empu Suparman began to teach me about keris, and I experienced what can only be called a revelation as to the true nature of the keris. I worked on the knowledge given to me by Empu Suparman, and I put the revelation on ice. But those two things together pushed me in a completely different direction in respect of collection. Probably from that point I became primarily a collector of knowledge rather than a collector of keris, even though I have continued to acquire keris and associated objects.

I myself have been through a number of very different approaches to the collecting of the keris, and speaking strictly for myself, the more I have learnt, the more interested I have become. Had I not become involved in the process of learning, it is entirely possible that my collecting instincts may have turned in a different direction.

So in my case there can be no doubt that the acquisition of knowledge has fuelled the acquisition of keris, as each time there has been an increase in my knowledge my involvement with and understanding of the keris has increased.

But as Jussi has so clearly pointed out:- not everybody truly wishes to travel this road, and in some cases attempts to gain knowledge could well result in the destruction of dreams and the obliteration of desire.

I am reminded of the old saying:-

"be careful what you pray for, you just might get it"

In the case of keris knowledge that could very well apply.

[David]

Actually Alan, given that this is the Keris Forum i think that it is best that we keep our discussion specific to keris collecting.
I have been watching this thread with great interest, but think i will add my own thoughts at this time.
I have always collected things. Stamps and coins, feathers, old keys, old cameras, hot wheels cars (i have over 1000 ), etc. When things pique my interest before long i find i have a couple, then a few, then a whole collection of them. Each subject of collection is usually driven by a different set of parameters. I must say that when i used to collect feathers i had little interest in the history other than a simple identification of the bird it came from. Old keys just look cool, so i do little research there. Keris are a bit different for me.
My interest in keris began in 1982, but my first find was actually it's larger cousin, a rather impressive Moro kris that i came across in an antique market in rural New Hampshire. I had no idea of it's origins and neither did the seller, but it fascinated me and i wanted to know more, so i bought it. I was living in NYC at the time so i made arrangements to meet with the curator of the arms & armor division at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. He kindly gave me a brief background that further fueled my interest. Soon after i saw a street vendor selling a magazine with a Javanese keris on it's cover and bought it. The article was filled with legend and inaccuracies, but it pushed my interest further and lead me to discover the Indonesian variety of keris. As with many i was lured by tales of magick, flying keris that battled each other and pamor made of "star metal" (meteorite). I must say that the more i learned about the keris and it's culture did not diminish my interest. I have always been interested in lore and legend and that is indeed still a part of keris culture even if the stories are just that. I have also made a very long study of magick and mysticism throughout the world and saw ideas about the "magickal" keris blade as another chapter in these stories and legends from around the world. I also tend to have a somewhat different and perhaps more practical approach to the question of what "magick" actually is than most of the Westerners i know. I have studied other animist cultures and perhaps work from a better understanding of the ideas of the "seen and unseen" worlds than most Western collectors do. So as i learned more about the realities of the associated keris cultures and how it fit into their societies i did not find the information a letdown from the legends. The more i read and experienced, the more interested i become.
My first Javanese keris came into my possession a few years after the Moro blade. A friend who likened himself a shaman knew of my Moro blade and said he had this smaller keris he wanted to pass on. It is a well made, but well worn old boy with erosion through the sogokan. My friend (a skilled woodworker) had made the sheath himself, functional, but not in any true Javanese form. It became a ritual blade for me and in many ways is still one of the most important keris to me personally, though it is of little intrinsic value to any collector. While i have still maintained an interest in Moro weapons (and have a fair numbers of them) over the years they are not the true focus of my edged weapons collecting and remain a side interest.
My study on these two blade was sparse for some time, but then i entered the world of the internet and for more than a decade now both my interest and my collection has exploded, mostly thanks to this forum and the suggestion that i contact a certain member here for more information about where to obtain a mendak.
It is true that books can only take you so far and that many of the books on keris merely recycle and repeat incorrect information. Some of the best books i have read towards furthering my understanding of keris are not ones really directed at the subject, but rather the cultures from which the keris developed. I do tend to obtain well produced picture books, not so much for the info in them (which is often disappointing), but so that i have nice detailed images of keris outside my collection to study the formal elements in their design. Sometimes one can develop interesting, if not always verifiable theories based upon simple observation.
So i guess my answer here is obvious. Yes, by all means, knowledge of the society, culture and history from which a collected item comes does indeed enhance the pursuit of collecting those items...for me.
Of course this study comes slowly for me. I read what i can, but that is never truly enough. I have been in the process of planning a trip to Java and Bali, but it may still be a few years before that becomes a reality. Even then, learning any culture as an outsider is always difficult and my time in that culture will be strictly limited. But it can certainly be said that my interest in the keris, which started with a fascination of the pure form and artistic beauty of the blades is now driven by a much deeper interest in the culture and history of the people to whom this blade was so important. It has lead to a side collection of Indonesian art and artifact (especially puppets) which only help further inform my study of keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

I think all the people who have responded to my initial post were thinking keris in any case, David, so the thread has been keris orientated from day one.

I was not thinking keris when I framed the questions, but the framing of the questions was driven by keris. I find that when I start to think about something in depth my thoughts run off into different directions and explore the factors that contribute to the core.

Collecting is a behaviour pattern that seems to be driven by the environment and experience of the collector, as well as inherited factors. Here in Oz we have bird called a bower bird that collects blue coloured things to build a bower in which he dances as part of the mating ritual. So collecting is not even a wholly human behaviour pattern.

We often learn more about a core issue by moving away from that core issue and considering it from a distance with the benefit of seemingly unrelated matters. You have mentioned that your keris interest has taken you into areas that might at first glance seem not to be related to an increase in information about keris, and from these apparently unrelated areas you have gained considerable knowledge that applies to the keris itself, this in turn has contributed to your enjoyment gained from acquiring keris. Not really all that dissimilar from my own experience.

To my mind, discussion of the keris embraces all those factors which touch, or are touched by, the keris. Discussion of the collecting of keris embraces all those matters which provide a better understanding of the act of collection.

One of the things about our discussions here in this Forum that disappoints me very considerably is the repetition of questions related to matters of identification. It is very seldom that I encounter a question, or any discussion, of the genuinely important and relevant matters that surround the keris. The nature of the questions and the discussion could be seen as an indication of the level of interest that the questioners have in the subject, and this in turn could be seen as an indicator of how much genuine study has been carried out in order to improve the level of knowledge. Is this a product of environment or is it an indicator of human nature, as suggested by Jussi? I don't know, but I do know that for a truly interested person there is an enormous amount of information available that can contribute to an understanding of the keris, if that is desired.

But perhaps it is not. I had a friend of 50 years who has now sadly passed, who had a wonderful collection of all sorts of eastern edged weapons, including a very nice collection of keris. He knew virtually nothing about the societal and anthropological aspects of his collecting, and he seldom discriminated on the basis of quality, but he did build a very large collection, and he got an immense amount of satisfaction from that collection. His interest was purely in the acquisition of the objects.

It could be that this behaviour pattern is the driver for a majority of collectors:- the pure act of collection.

Perhaps I'm no different. As I remarked previously, my collecting has now moved from collecting the object to collecting information that relates to the object. I still buy the occasional keris for myself, but I am now driven by different motivating factors and I'd sooner spend a couple of K on acquiring some smidgen of information that relates to the keris than on acquiring another keris.

So David, yes, we can restrict our discussion to keris related collecting, but this restriction can act as a lens that can be used to focus on what triggered my initial questions. Either way, I'm getting an education --- perhaps we all are.

[Jussi M.]

Mr. Maisey -

one thing that should not be forgotten herein is time. Yes, we´ve often spoken on this forum about the importance of time from the perspective that in order to understand better an object such as the keris (that comes from a distant time and past), we inevitably need to try to understand that distant time and place better as time alters perspective. - Thus the need for educating oneself on areas such as s, c & h.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

One of the things about our discussions here in this Forum that disappoints me very considerably is the repetition of questions related to matters of identification. (...) The nature of the questions and the discussion could be seen as an indication of the level of interest that the questioners have in the subject, and this in turn could be seen as an indicator of how much genuine study has been carried out in order to improve the level of knowledge.

We should however be aware that time still envelops us - we all, as the keris, change as time moves forward. You yourself Mr. Maisey joined lives with the keris over 60 years ago. That is a long time, and during this time of over half a century, your perception, understanding and motives in continuing to live with the keris have changed. Dramatically!

Indeed it was not a short jump from "acquiring every keris ever made" to become a collector of knowledge, much of which has become wisdom already. Thus, whilst I do understand your call for deeper discussion and less show and tell, I wish you patience as most of us here are still at the very beginnings of our process labelled as "collecting". Or, in the case of the few gifted (read truly motivated) ones, dare I say, "study". Maybe it could also be said that many of us are just happy being devoted fans. - For myself the keris represents many a things: friendship, relaxation, awe, mystery and a sort of a peep hole onto something else that I have true passion for.

You, Mr. Maisey, are the Professor whereas I, and most others here, are like the junior freshmen. That is OK, but it is not OK for the professor to expect the freshmen to be able to deliver as do those who have already climbed to the upper echelons of the academia as maturing takes - pun intended - time.

I am afraid that some people might get discouraged reading threads such as this as they still have not learned how to write and they might understand wrongly that novels are expected from them. Let me assure you they are not.

The only thing valid? - Join the discussion. Be active. Ask. Enjoy. Learning happens best when you are having fun and you can have fun even if the subject is loaded.



Thanks,

J.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, you're right on the money Jussi:- things change over time. I no longer go running through the lignum chasing pig dogs so that I can severe the spinal cord of a boar with a khukri blow. It was great fun when I was 20, but it would kill me now.

These days I'm more in tune with ploughing through multi volume publications that deal with 14th century Jawa. I would not have been capable of this when I was 20, but I am now, so I've lost one ability and gained a different one.

But Jussi, please do not think that I lack patience. Patience is one of my very few virtues, and I have it in spades. I do realise that not everybody wants the same things that I do from a keris interest, and I do realise that for many people just being able to tell the difference between a Jogja keris and a Solo keris is a major leap forward in knowledge --- as it was for me many, many years ago.

I understand that we all need to learn our ABC before we can begin to read Shakespeare. My little bit of bitching above was because I truly would like to see some of our more long term members advance just a little bit beyond simple questions of ID, and begin to try to understand the significance of the keris within its cultural context. This is something I'd very much like to see, but if it never happens it won't deter me from jumping into discussions from time to time and annoying people.

Oh yeah --- Jussi, in The Land of Oz we tend not to address people by use of an honorific. In other words we do not use "Dr.", or "Mr.", or even "Prime Minister". If mister average were to meet the prime minister of the day he would most likely greet her with "G'day Julie". In fact, the use of an honorific can in some circumstances be interpreted as an insult.
So, may I most politely request that you address me as "Alan"? Regrettably we did not go to the same high school at the same time, nor do we belong to the same club, otherwise I would request that you address me as "Maisey", without the "Mr."

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh yeah --- Jussi, (...) may I most politely request that you address me as "Alan"? Regrettably we did not go to the same high school at the same time, nor do we belong to the same club, otherwise I would request that you address me as "Maisey", without the "Mr."

Sure thing Alan!

And, for the record (for the reader), I did not aim for sarcasm when I addressed Alan as Mr. Maisey. - That is just how I´ve addressed him since day one on this public arena.

Going to high school together... That would had been interesting...!

J.

[Iain]

If you'll permit a perspective from a non kris collector (African takouba), I find the topic at hand fascinating and it is something I have often thought about.

Q1: Yes

Q2: I think so, although the level of detail any individual collector might find necessary to satisfy their interest will greatly vary.

To expand on Q2 slightly, I still actively collect but have become completely narrow minded. My collecting began as a passing interest in a particular form, truth be told inspired by a boyish desire to own something like a "knight's" sword but quite a bit cheaper. This was admittedly a rather shallow place to start from. However, at the start my knowledge of the cultures, peoples and history that produced this particular form was just about zero. Through collecting I became not only aware that I couldn't understand the objects in the context I wanted to without further study of the cultures that produced them, but genuinely interested in the history of that part of the world. The swords being very much a gateway into a broader desire to learn.

I think in general there are two motivations for collectors - some collect to fill a niche, a spot on the wall, generally a good example exemplifying the particular form being acquired. This, because of a fascination with swords or weaponry as a whole and as a topic within its own right. This is a very valid collecting path to my mind and is a broad approach that I sometimes truly envy! It is perhaps often characterized by an emphasis on classification related to that need to fill particularly categories.

On the other side, as in my case, the sword or weapon is simply a way of achieving a physical connection to the history or culture that interests us and a real and present reminder for continued research. I think I could have started with any sword form and gone down the same rabbit hole. I just happened to start with takouba and got stuck.

I have to admit I am quite lax even with displaying my collection and have quite a few 'piles' around the house. The real joy from each piece is the interest to learn, research and formulate ideas about the history and development of the form. I have happily read about everything from brass working, to leather tanning, textiles, religion, trade and general history in the context of the cultures that produced takouba. I find myself less and less interested in the minutia of each example I acquire but in the context it can find in the overall 'story' of this particular sword form.

I have no motivation to collect other objects and in that sense I am quite limited. My learning is confined to a somewhat narrow scope of what can be seen to directly impact the topic of this sword form, but that has turned out to be quite a lot! I would simply put, not collect if I felt like there was nothing new to learn and contribute. It is the to drive formulate new ideas and theories that keeps me acquiring pieces and the sense that there is always something more to learn about them.

Best regards,

Iain

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This man's approach to the keris was absolutely Javanese in nature, and would probably not be understood by anybody who was not absolutely traditional Javanese. It would certainly not be understood by the new wave of Indonesian collectors who address the keris as an art object. I most sincerely doubt that any collector from any western environment would even be aware of the existence of the foundation upon which the deceased gentleman constructed his collection:- this collection is a product of the Javanese environment.

Hello Alan,
I feel puzzled by this "absolutely traditional Javanese" approach to kris collecting, can you tell us more about it? It would help us to get a glimpse of the Javanese mind and culture.
Best regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Jean, not in public.

This matter deals with a man for whom I have a great deal of respect who has now passed to another realm, his personal preferences should not be aired in public