Kris Sumatra or Malay?

Jean · 21st April 2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, you have asked me if this triangle represents Mt. Meru.

I'm not going to say yes or no, rather I'm going to ask you to tell me if it does and to substantiate your answer. In other words do the research and the thinking required.

Hello Alan,
For doing the research and the thinking required about the symbolism of this triangle, I feel like a hen having found a knive a we say in France!

With my very weak knowledge of Hinduism and having read that the kris used to symbolize Shiva in Hinduist times, I am proposing the following interpretation which is just coming from my imagination:

The triangle on the sor-soran depicts the Trimurti, Brahma and Vishnu being the 2 corners on the base and Shiva the top corner of the triangle pointing-up to the tip of the blade..... So when you strike with the kris, the victim is actually struck by Shiva himself!
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2013, 12:53 PM

Jean, I feel that guessing the multiple possibilities is not quite the way to go. Even if the result of the guess is correct, which in this case it may be, or it may not be.

You are starting to look in the right direction, and when you look in the right direction in the right way you will find you find that many things exist that you did not previously suspect.

I most sincerely suggest that you stop guessing, stop basing your guesses on what you already know and start to do the research that will give you answers that you can support.

By profession I am an auditor. An auditor is "one who listens". To what does an auditor listen? He listens to the answers to his questions, and the key to any kind of audit is to first ask the right questions. Answers are easy to produce, but the correct questions are not.An answer without a question is really of not much use.

In what you have just said you have identified one quality of the keris with which it is very difficult to argue:- it originated in a society influenced by Hindu ideas.

One of these ideas with which it is also very difficult to argue is that Hindus believe in Siwa (Shiva).

You say you have read that the keris represented Siwa. Perhaps it did. But how did that happen? What I'm trying to get you to do is to join some dots, but you are just plucking dots out of the air. I want you to discover something, not just repeat what somebody else has written and take guesses at why they have written it.

Almost everything you need to tell you what the keris truly is has been published already in one of two languages:- English or Indonesian. But what has been published is scattered dots. You need to join the dots.

Jean · 21st April 2013, 02:58 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your message and I will do my best to find more clues about the meaning of this triangle on the sorsoran but my documentation resources are limited so I am not sure to succeed and invite other members to participate also.

Best regards
Jean
PS: By the way have you any opinion about the probable origin of the first kris shown in this thread?

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2013, 11:32 PM

OK Jean, thanks.

You will be able to get all the assistance you need from online sources if you give careful thought to the questions you need to ask. This is the hard part:- constructing the questions that will give the answers you need. Indonesian authors writing in English can be quite useful.

Yes, I would also like to see more people participating. This is the first opportunity we have had in a long time to explore something of genuine value to the keris knowledge bank.

As to origin of the fairly recent keris shown, this sort of thing is not really of much interest to me, especially with keris that are second string items. By "second string" I mean keris that are from societies that inherited the keris from the core societies of Jawa and Bali. Origin ID, material ID, age & etc of these keris is not at all relevant to the areas in which I have an interest.

21st April 2013, 12:53 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, I feel that guessing the multiple possibilities is not quite the way to go. Even if the result of the guess is correct, which in this case it may be, or it may not be. You are starting to look in the right direction, and when you look in the right direction in the right way you will find you find that many things exist that you did not previously suspect. I most sincerely suggest that you stop guessing, stop basing your guesses on what you already know and start to do the research that will give you answers that you can support. By profession I am an auditor. An auditor is "one who listens". To what does an auditor listen? He listens to the answers to his questions, and the key to any kind of audit is to first ask the right questions. Answers are easy to produce, but the correct questions are not.An answer without a question is really of not much use. In what you have just said you have identified one quality of the keris with which it is very difficult to argue:- it originated in a society influenced by Hindu ideas. One of these ideas with which it is also very difficult to argue is that Hindus believe in Siwa (Shiva). You say you have read that the keris represented Siwa. Perhaps it did. But how did that happen? What I'm trying to get you to do is to join some dots, but you are just plucking dots out of the air. I want you to discover something, not just repeat what somebody else has written and take guesses at why they have written it. Almost everything you need to tell you what the keris truly is has been published already in one of two languages:- English or Indonesian. But what has been published is scattered dots. You need to join the dots.

21st April 2013, 02:58 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your message and I will do my best to find more clues about the meaning of this triangle on the sorsoran but my documentation resources are limited so I am not sure to succeed and invite other members to participate also. Best regards Jean PS: By the way have you any opinion about the probable origin of the first kris shown in this thread?

21st April 2013, 11:32 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	OK Jean, thanks. You will be able to get all the assistance you need from online sources if you give careful thought to the questions you need to ask. This is the hard part:- constructing the questions that will give the answers you need. Indonesian authors writing in English can be quite useful. Yes, I would also like to see more people participating. This is the first opportunity we have had in a long time to explore something of genuine value to the keris knowledge bank. As to origin of the fairly recent keris shown, this sort of thing is not really of much interest to me, especially with keris that are second string items. By "second string" I mean keris that are from societies that inherited the keris from the core societies of Jawa and Bali. Origin ID, material ID, age & etc of these keris is not at all relevant to the areas in which I have an interest.