Kris Sumatra or Malay?

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2013, 12:56 AM

In Javanese symbolism, and as far as I am aware in all other symbolism associated with any ethnic group, including European and the sub-divisions, a symbol will commence as something that may or may not be well known in the general community. Possibly only truly known to a select group within a community, but recognised by the general community as something special, that symbolises something , but the general community is not quite sure what it symbolises, just that its "special".

The symbol continues in (principally) art and continues to be recognised as a symbol that has a meaning, but that meaning becomes lost or distorted by time, even though the symbol itself is still recognised and continues in use. We can see this in European artistic usage, particularly in Renaissance art:- Renaissance art was principally about religion and the people who understood the language of art at that time in history could read a painting and understand what was being said. The ordinary people were not privy to all of the language used and could not read the painting. Here in 21st century even our expert authorities seem to be confused by some of the Renaissance symbolism, and the same is true of symbolism in all other historic art. People forget. They continue to use the symbols because those symbols belong in a particular place, but they forget the meaning of the symbols, or because of a change in society and cultural foundations, the meaning of the symbol changes.

Time alters perspective.

What one sees and understands now is not what one might have seen or understood at some previous point in time.

In this matter of the triangle I will not answer any questions, I will not say if in my opinion the answers given are right or wrong, because an answer might be partially correct and to say that it is correct would necessarily entail an explanation that would cause the cessation of enquiring thought. After a complete answer has been given I will say if I am in agreement or not.

More than 30 years ago I stumbled onto something that caused me to start to think about the keris in a different way to the way in which most people think about the keris. It took me a very long time to join some of the dots that provide some sort of an answer.

This upwards pointing triangle is one doorway into the same room that those dots have built.

If you can understand the triangle you have the beginning of a true understanding of the keris.

Jean, you have asked me if this triangle represents Mt. Meru.

I'm not going to say yes or no, rather I'm going to ask you to tell me if it does and to substantiate your answer. In other words do the research and the thinking required.

Gustav, I believe I have also answered your question in what I have written above. As to where else the triangle might appear in other forms of keris, well, that is not at all relevant, because these other forms of keris were simply copying what had gone before, it is somewhere between highly unlikely and extremely impossible that the makers and users of these other forms of keris had even the vaguest idea of the original meaning of the triangle in the early keris. This where you need to look:- early keris and the society that gave birth to the keris.

Jean · 21st April 2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, you have asked me if this triangle represents Mt. Meru.

I'm not going to say yes or no, rather I'm going to ask you to tell me if it does and to substantiate your answer. In other words do the research and the thinking required.

Hello Alan,
For doing the research and the thinking required about the symbolism of this triangle, I feel like a hen having found a knive a we say in France!

With my very weak knowledge of Hinduism and having read that the kris used to symbolize Shiva in Hinduist times, I am proposing the following interpretation which is just coming from my imagination:

The triangle on the sor-soran depicts the Trimurti, Brahma and Vishnu being the 2 corners on the base and Shiva the top corner of the triangle pointing-up to the tip of the blade..... So when you strike with the kris, the victim is actually struck by Shiva himself!
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2013, 12:53 PM

Jean, I feel that guessing the multiple possibilities is not quite the way to go. Even if the result of the guess is correct, which in this case it may be, or it may not be.

You are starting to look in the right direction, and when you look in the right direction in the right way you will find you find that many things exist that you did not previously suspect.

I most sincerely suggest that you stop guessing, stop basing your guesses on what you already know and start to do the research that will give you answers that you can support.

By profession I am an auditor. An auditor is "one who listens". To what does an auditor listen? He listens to the answers to his questions, and the key to any kind of audit is to first ask the right questions. Answers are easy to produce, but the correct questions are not.An answer without a question is really of not much use.

In what you have just said you have identified one quality of the keris with which it is very difficult to argue:- it originated in a society influenced by Hindu ideas.

One of these ideas with which it is also very difficult to argue is that Hindus believe in Siwa (Shiva).

You say you have read that the keris represented Siwa. Perhaps it did. But how did that happen? What I'm trying to get you to do is to join some dots, but you are just plucking dots out of the air. I want you to discover something, not just repeat what somebody else has written and take guesses at why they have written it.

Almost everything you need to tell you what the keris truly is has been published already in one of two languages:- English or Indonesian. But what has been published is scattered dots. You need to join the dots.

Jean · 21st April 2013, 02:58 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your message and I will do my best to find more clues about the meaning of this triangle on the sorsoran but my documentation resources are limited so I am not sure to succeed and invite other members to participate also.

Best regards
Jean
PS: By the way have you any opinion about the probable origin of the first kris shown in this thread?

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2013, 11:32 PM

OK Jean, thanks.

You will be able to get all the assistance you need from online sources if you give careful thought to the questions you need to ask. This is the hard part:- constructing the questions that will give the answers you need. Indonesian authors writing in English can be quite useful.

Yes, I would also like to see more people participating. This is the first opportunity we have had in a long time to explore something of genuine value to the keris knowledge bank.

As to origin of the fairly recent keris shown, this sort of thing is not really of much interest to me, especially with keris that are second string items. By "second string" I mean keris that are from societies that inherited the keris from the core societies of Jawa and Bali. Origin ID, material ID, age & etc of these keris is not at all relevant to the areas in which I have an interest.

21st April 2013, 12:56 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	In Javanese symbolism, and as far as I am aware in all other symbolism associated with any ethnic group, including European and the sub-divisions, a symbol will commence as something that may or may not be well known in the general community. Possibly only truly known to a select group within a community, but recognised by the general community as something special, that symbolises something , but the general community is not quite sure what it symbolises, just that its "special". The symbol continues in (principally) art and continues to be recognised as a symbol that has a meaning, but that meaning becomes lost or distorted by time, even though the symbol itself is still recognised and continues in use. We can see this in European artistic usage, particularly in Renaissance art:- Renaissance art was principally about religion and the people who understood the language of art at that time in history could read a painting and understand what was being said. The ordinary people were not privy to all of the language used and could not read the painting. Here in 21st century even our expert authorities seem to be confused by some of the Renaissance symbolism, and the same is true of symbolism in all other historic art. People forget. They continue to use the symbols because those symbols belong in a particular place, but they forget the meaning of the symbols, or because of a change in society and cultural foundations, the meaning of the symbol changes. Time alters perspective. What one sees and understands now is not what one might have seen or understood at some previous point in time. In this matter of the triangle I will not answer any questions, I will not say if in my opinion the answers given are right or wrong, because an answer might be partially correct and to say that it is correct would necessarily entail an explanation that would cause the cessation of enquiring thought. After a complete answer has been given I will say if I am in agreement or not. More than 30 years ago I stumbled onto something that caused me to start to think about the keris in a different way to the way in which most people think about the keris. It took me a very long time to join some of the dots that provide some sort of an answer. This upwards pointing triangle is one doorway into the same room that those dots have built. If you can understand the triangle you have the beginning of a true understanding of the keris. Jean, you have asked me if this triangle represents Mt. Meru. I'm not going to say yes or no, rather I'm going to ask you to tell me if it does and to substantiate your answer. In other words do the research and the thinking required. Gustav, I believe I have also answered your question in what I have written above. As to where else the triangle might appear in other forms of keris, well, that is not at all relevant, because these other forms of keris were simply copying what had gone before, it is somewhere between highly unlikely and extremely impossible that the makers and users of these other forms of keris had even the vaguest idea of the original meaning of the triangle in the early keris. This where you need to look:- early keris and the society that gave birth to the keris.

21st April 2013, 12:53 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, I feel that guessing the multiple possibilities is not quite the way to go. Even if the result of the guess is correct, which in this case it may be, or it may not be. You are starting to look in the right direction, and when you look in the right direction in the right way you will find you find that many things exist that you did not previously suspect. I most sincerely suggest that you stop guessing, stop basing your guesses on what you already know and start to do the research that will give you answers that you can support. By profession I am an auditor. An auditor is "one who listens". To what does an auditor listen? He listens to the answers to his questions, and the key to any kind of audit is to first ask the right questions. Answers are easy to produce, but the correct questions are not.An answer without a question is really of not much use. In what you have just said you have identified one quality of the keris with which it is very difficult to argue:- it originated in a society influenced by Hindu ideas. One of these ideas with which it is also very difficult to argue is that Hindus believe in Siwa (Shiva). You say you have read that the keris represented Siwa. Perhaps it did. But how did that happen? What I'm trying to get you to do is to join some dots, but you are just plucking dots out of the air. I want you to discover something, not just repeat what somebody else has written and take guesses at why they have written it. Almost everything you need to tell you what the keris truly is has been published already in one of two languages:- English or Indonesian. But what has been published is scattered dots. You need to join the dots.

21st April 2013, 02:58 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your message and I will do my best to find more clues about the meaning of this triangle on the sorsoran but my documentation resources are limited so I am not sure to succeed and invite other members to participate also. Best regards Jean PS: By the way have you any opinion about the probable origin of the first kris shown in this thread?

21st April 2013, 11:32 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	OK Jean, thanks. You will be able to get all the assistance you need from online sources if you give careful thought to the questions you need to ask. This is the hard part:- constructing the questions that will give the answers you need. Indonesian authors writing in English can be quite useful. Yes, I would also like to see more people participating. This is the first opportunity we have had in a long time to explore something of genuine value to the keris knowledge bank. As to origin of the fairly recent keris shown, this sort of thing is not really of much interest to me, especially with keris that are second string items. By "second string" I mean keris that are from societies that inherited the keris from the core societies of Jawa and Bali. Origin ID, material ID, age & etc of these keris is not at all relevant to the areas in which I have an interest.