Kris Sumatra or Malay?

henri · 20th April 2013, 03:20 AM

Hello Jean ,

I have a blade with some similarities but no pamor . I still think the blade could be Malay Peninsula .

A. G. Maisey · 20th April 2013, 06:02 AM

Henri's keris has an upwards pointing triangular form in the sorsoran.

Does anybody know what this is --- maybe even why its there?

Gustav · 20th April 2013, 09:49 AM

Alan, I don't know what it is, yet the examples I have seen with this feature are either Sumatran Straits dressed or are Malayan Sundangs:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292

I thought about this feature, it could be a little bit easyer way to give sorsoran a shape without cutting out the sogokan. The other influence (via Sundang) could perhaps be the exagerated Janur/even more exagerated Bawang Sebungkul sometimes seen on Moro krisses. Actually even Jeans keris is slightly going in this direction. On Henry's keris the Blumbangan has almost disappeared, yet I still see the hint.

A. G. Maisey · 20th April 2013, 12:42 PM

This triangular form appears on very early Javanese keris, is fairly widespread in both keris and tombak.

I'm afraid that you're thinking in the wrong direction Gustav.

I have no intention of giving an answer on this question I've raised, my intention in raising it is because I see this as the perfect opportunity to demonstrate how a little thought after a slight hint can answer so many questions.

What you are looking at is an upwards pointing triangle.

Now do a bit of research.

Gustav · 20th April 2013, 01:16 PM

Alan, I know you thought about this keris.

Of course there are also Tombak and Indian spearheads and daggers, which display these features.

I have no doubts you are wright about the meaning in early keris, yet I don't know if there is a possibility of an uninterrupted line we could draw from the early keris to these Straits Keris and Sundangs.

In which other keris forms this feature appears?

Jean · 20th April 2013, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Henri's keris has an upwards pointing triangular form in the sorsoran.

Does anybody know what this is --- maybe even why its there?

I don't know but am just guessing, does it symbolize Gunung Meru?

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2013, 12:56 AM

In Javanese symbolism, and as far as I am aware in all other symbolism associated with any ethnic group, including European and the sub-divisions, a symbol will commence as something that may or may not be well known in the general community. Possibly only truly known to a select group within a community, but recognised by the general community as something special, that symbolises something , but the general community is not quite sure what it symbolises, just that its "special".

The symbol continues in (principally) art and continues to be recognised as a symbol that has a meaning, but that meaning becomes lost or distorted by time, even though the symbol itself is still recognised and continues in use. We can see this in European artistic usage, particularly in Renaissance art:- Renaissance art was principally about religion and the people who understood the language of art at that time in history could read a painting and understand what was being said. The ordinary people were not privy to all of the language used and could not read the painting. Here in 21st century even our expert authorities seem to be confused by some of the Renaissance symbolism, and the same is true of symbolism in all other historic art. People forget. They continue to use the symbols because those symbols belong in a particular place, but they forget the meaning of the symbols, or because of a change in society and cultural foundations, the meaning of the symbol changes.

Time alters perspective.

What one sees and understands now is not what one might have seen or understood at some previous point in time.

In this matter of the triangle I will not answer any questions, I will not say if in my opinion the answers given are right or wrong, because an answer might be partially correct and to say that it is correct would necessarily entail an explanation that would cause the cessation of enquiring thought. After a complete answer has been given I will say if I am in agreement or not.

More than 30 years ago I stumbled onto something that caused me to start to think about the keris in a different way to the way in which most people think about the keris. It took me a very long time to join some of the dots that provide some sort of an answer.

This upwards pointing triangle is one doorway into the same room that those dots have built.

If you can understand the triangle you have the beginning of a true understanding of the keris.

Jean, you have asked me if this triangle represents Mt. Meru.

I'm not going to say yes or no, rather I'm going to ask you to tell me if it does and to substantiate your answer. In other words do the research and the thinking required.

Gustav, I believe I have also answered your question in what I have written above. As to where else the triangle might appear in other forms of keris, well, that is not at all relevant, because these other forms of keris were simply copying what had gone before, it is somewhere between highly unlikely and extremely impossible that the makers and users of these other forms of keris had even the vaguest idea of the original meaning of the triangle in the early keris. This where you need to look:- early keris and the society that gave birth to the keris.

Jean · 21st April 2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, you have asked me if this triangle represents Mt. Meru.

I'm not going to say yes or no, rather I'm going to ask you to tell me if it does and to substantiate your answer. In other words do the research and the thinking required.

Hello Alan,
For doing the research and the thinking required about the symbolism of this triangle, I feel like a hen having found a knive a we say in France!

With my very weak knowledge of Hinduism and having read that the kris used to symbolize Shiva in Hinduist times, I am proposing the following interpretation which is just coming from my imagination:

The triangle on the sor-soran depicts the Trimurti, Brahma and Vishnu being the 2 corners on the base and Shiva the top corner of the triangle pointing-up to the tip of the blade..... So when you strike with the kris, the victim is actually struck by Shiva himself!
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2013, 12:53 PM

Jean, I feel that guessing the multiple possibilities is not quite the way to go. Even if the result of the guess is correct, which in this case it may be, or it may not be.

You are starting to look in the right direction, and when you look in the right direction in the right way you will find you find that many things exist that you did not previously suspect.

I most sincerely suggest that you stop guessing, stop basing your guesses on what you already know and start to do the research that will give you answers that you can support.

By profession I am an auditor. An auditor is "one who listens". To what does an auditor listen? He listens to the answers to his questions, and the key to any kind of audit is to first ask the right questions. Answers are easy to produce, but the correct questions are not.An answer without a question is really of not much use.

In what you have just said you have identified one quality of the keris with which it is very difficult to argue:- it originated in a society influenced by Hindu ideas.

One of these ideas with which it is also very difficult to argue is that Hindus believe in Siwa (Shiva).

You say you have read that the keris represented Siwa. Perhaps it did. But how did that happen? What I'm trying to get you to do is to join some dots, but you are just plucking dots out of the air. I want you to discover something, not just repeat what somebody else has written and take guesses at why they have written it.

Almost everything you need to tell you what the keris truly is has been published already in one of two languages:- English or Indonesian. But what has been published is scattered dots. You need to join the dots.

Jean · 21st April 2013, 02:58 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your message and I will do my best to find more clues about the meaning of this triangle on the sorsoran but my documentation resources are limited so I am not sure to succeed and invite other members to participate also.

Best regards
Jean
PS: By the way have you any opinion about the probable origin of the first kris shown in this thread?

20th April 2013, 03:20 AM	#1
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Hello Jean , I have a blade with some similarities but no pamor . I still think the blade could be Malay Peninsula . Attached Images

20th April 2013, 09:49 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Alan, I don't know what it is, yet the examples I have seen with this feature are either Sumatran Straits dressed or are Malayan Sundangs: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292 I thought about this feature, it could be a little bit easyer way to give sorsoran a shape without cutting out the sogokan. The other influence (via Sundang) could perhaps be the exagerated Janur/even more exagerated Bawang Sebungkul sometimes seen on Moro krisses. Actually even Jeans keris is slightly going in this direction. On Henry's keris the Blumbangan has almost disappeared, yet I still see the hint. Last edited by Gustav; 20th April 2013 at 10:48 AM.

20th April 2013, 01:16 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Alan, I know you thought about this keris. Of course there are also Tombak and Indian spearheads and daggers, which display these features. I have no doubts you are wright about the meaning in early keris, yet I don't know if there is a possibility of an uninterrupted line we could draw from the early keris to these Straits Keris and Sundangs. In which other keris forms this feature appears? Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 20th April 2013 at 10:08 PM.

20th April 2013, 06:02 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Henri's keris has an upwards pointing triangular form in the sorsoran. Does anybody know what this is --- maybe even why its there?

20th April 2013, 12:42 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	This triangular form appears on very early Javanese keris, is fairly widespread in both keris and tombak. I'm afraid that you're thinking in the wrong direction Gustav. I have no intention of giving an answer on this question I've raised, my intention in raising it is because I see this as the perfect opportunity to demonstrate how a little thought after a slight hint can answer so many questions. What you are looking at is an upwards pointing triangle. Now do a bit of research.

21st April 2013, 12:56 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In Javanese symbolism, and as far as I am aware in all other symbolism associated with any ethnic group, including European and the sub-divisions, a symbol will commence as something that may or may not be well known in the general community. Possibly only truly known to a select group within a community, but recognised by the general community as something special, that symbolises something , but the general community is not quite sure what it symbolises, just that its "special". The symbol continues in (principally) art and continues to be recognised as a symbol that has a meaning, but that meaning becomes lost or distorted by time, even though the symbol itself is still recognised and continues in use. We can see this in European artistic usage, particularly in Renaissance art:- Renaissance art was principally about religion and the people who understood the language of art at that time in history could read a painting and understand what was being said. The ordinary people were not privy to all of the language used and could not read the painting. Here in 21st century even our expert authorities seem to be confused by some of the Renaissance symbolism, and the same is true of symbolism in all other historic art. People forget. They continue to use the symbols because those symbols belong in a particular place, but they forget the meaning of the symbols, or because of a change in society and cultural foundations, the meaning of the symbol changes. Time alters perspective. What one sees and understands now is not what one might have seen or understood at some previous point in time. In this matter of the triangle I will not answer any questions, I will not say if in my opinion the answers given are right or wrong, because an answer might be partially correct and to say that it is correct would necessarily entail an explanation that would cause the cessation of enquiring thought. After a complete answer has been given I will say if I am in agreement or not. More than 30 years ago I stumbled onto something that caused me to start to think about the keris in a different way to the way in which most people think about the keris. It took me a very long time to join some of the dots that provide some sort of an answer. This upwards pointing triangle is one doorway into the same room that those dots have built. If you can understand the triangle you have the beginning of a true understanding of the keris. Jean, you have asked me if this triangle represents Mt. Meru. I'm not going to say yes or no, rather I'm going to ask you to tell me if it does and to substantiate your answer. In other words do the research and the thinking required. Gustav, I believe I have also answered your question in what I have written above. As to where else the triangle might appear in other forms of keris, well, that is not at all relevant, because these other forms of keris were simply copying what had gone before, it is somewhere between highly unlikely and extremely impossible that the makers and users of these other forms of keris had even the vaguest idea of the original meaning of the triangle in the early keris. This where you need to look:- early keris and the society that gave birth to the keris.

21st April 2013, 12:53 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, I feel that guessing the multiple possibilities is not quite the way to go. Even if the result of the guess is correct, which in this case it may be, or it may not be. You are starting to look in the right direction, and when you look in the right direction in the right way you will find you find that many things exist that you did not previously suspect. I most sincerely suggest that you stop guessing, stop basing your guesses on what you already know and start to do the research that will give you answers that you can support. By profession I am an auditor. An auditor is "one who listens". To what does an auditor listen? He listens to the answers to his questions, and the key to any kind of audit is to first ask the right questions. Answers are easy to produce, but the correct questions are not.An answer without a question is really of not much use. In what you have just said you have identified one quality of the keris with which it is very difficult to argue:- it originated in a society influenced by Hindu ideas. One of these ideas with which it is also very difficult to argue is that Hindus believe in Siwa (Shiva). You say you have read that the keris represented Siwa. Perhaps it did. But how did that happen? What I'm trying to get you to do is to join some dots, but you are just plucking dots out of the air. I want you to discover something, not just repeat what somebody else has written and take guesses at why they have written it. Almost everything you need to tell you what the keris truly is has been published already in one of two languages:- English or Indonesian. But what has been published is scattered dots. You need to join the dots.

21st April 2013, 02:58 PM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your message and I will do my best to find more clues about the meaning of this triangle on the sorsoran but my documentation resources are limited so I am not sure to succeed and invite other members to participate also. Best regards Jean PS: By the way have you any opinion about the probable origin of the first kris shown in this thread?