black sea yataghan

Tim Simmons · 12th October 2005, 06:27 PM

How right you are. What a shame Mr Tirri should get something like this so wrong. Those pictures show wonderfull plain working weapons, thanks Tim.

Rivkin · 12th October 2005, 08:01 PM

The first time I saw this guy I thought "what a weird manding/sudanese sabre"

Mark · 12th October 2005, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

How right you are. What a shame Mr Tirri should get something like this so wrong. Those pictures show wonderfull plain working weapons, thanks Tim.

Tony supports his N. African provenance theory with a number of features from a number of pieces, so its not really unsupported in terms or argument (he gave a very interesting talk on it at the EEWRS dinner a couple years back). His position is, as Ariel points out, the subject of debate, and certainly based on empirical observation and deduction rather than historical or local information.

There are some ways to reconcile the two, for example taking into account that Ottoman troops may have brought it with them to places like Egypt during the Ottoman Empire period, or influence going the other way via trade or population movement. I think one unanswered question is how far back the style goes, which is always an interesting question to me, as it can open up possiblities of cross-cultural influence, or exclude others that would have post-dated the earliest appearance of the style (for example in this case, if it predates Ottoman presence in N. Africa).

Rivkin · 12th October 2005, 08:14 PM

I was told that this weapon is specifically associated with Laz pirates.

Mark · 12th October 2005, 08:19 PM

Please remember that this thread is about the sword, not the history of ethnic groups in Asia Minor.

I am following the thread closely, and be advised that if the Laz "issue" gets out of hand (as it has once before) I am going to drop a hammer on all involved. The editorializing has really reached the limits of permissible discussion here, and bans will be issued if necessary.

The Moderogre

ham · 13th October 2005, 07:47 PM

Gentlemen,

A colleague at the EEWRS meeting kindly lent me the printed material which Mr. Tirri passed out in support of his proposed North African attribution to this type of sword shortly after it took place. It has been a while but as I recall, Tirri's arguments were based upon 2 points: a formal relationship between the Black Sea yatagan and the flyssa (he argued that one was derived from the other, I think it was that the yatagan came from the flyssa), failing to note that both are just provincial developments off the yataghan which likely occurred coevally, one in North Africa and the other in the Transcaucasus. Secondly, he compared the decorative characteristics which generally appear on flyssas with those on a particular Black Sea yatagan in his possession-- the only one I've ever seen with such designs-- it almost certainly was decorated in North Africa. This was a more defensible point that his first, however his conclusion was marred by the fact that he could produce but a single example in support of it. As Mark says however, the range of the Ottoman military was considerable; this type of sword could easily have found its way from Eastern Anatolia to the African Provinces. In any case, Tirri deserves credit for his research as well as for putting forth an original thesis.

Ariel, regarding your observations above:

"I handled quite a lot of them. The point is very, very thin, almost needle-like and I saw several with bent points.
The forked pommels break easily (see the original picture in this thread). Also, the horns protrude so much that wrist bending is almost impossible: worse than tulwars with oversized dish pommels. As a former fencer (foil and saber), I could not wield it with ease no matter what kind of grip I used. On the other hand, since these swords were primarily "pirate" type weapons (that's what Lazes did on top of smuggling) they were sure scary! As a psychological warfare these swords were great but technologically they were less than adequate."

In the simplest terms, you are comparing apples and oranges. If, as you say, your practical experience with edged weapons is limited to fencing-- a sport so highly conventionalized that any beginner knows it is remote even from the use of rapier and smallsword whence it derives, and one designed for use with very specific equipment NOT intended for cutting-- then any pronouncement you make on the use of weapons other than the foil or saber, i.e. the Black Sea yatagan, the tulwar, or for that matter anything designed for use with the drawcut is, regretably, invalid.
Relative rigidity in the wrist was key to the effective use of these weapons, which is why their pommels were prominent in one way or another. The stroke was accomplished primarily with the shoulder and elbow in a quick drawing motion across the body-- Stone mentions this under his entry on shamshirs, pg. 550. Having done much of his research in situ over a century ago, Stone was fortunate enough to witness many of these weapons in actual use-- and while those days have passed, we can benefit from his observations as well as those of others who were able to do so. I often wonder why students and collectors so rarely do.
As far as broken ears and bent tips, who can say whether these come from use or misuse over time? Concrete, little boys, adults after one too many beers, and power tools are the recognized nemeses of old swords, you know.

Rivkin-- Yes, I was referring to the burka, a singularly impermeable and exceptionally warm, if generally odiferous, garment.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ahriman · 13th October 2005, 08:07 PM

I was just about to write about that "sport" thing Ham mentioned... so now, I won't.

Just one thing. We, hungarians, used mostly sabers, especially after 1500. One of our warrior-poets, Balint Balassi, who died from a leg-removing nice little cannonball, had a gothic gauntlet recordedly. Gothic gauntlets don't really allow much wrist movement, just up and down and rotation. And of course, a bit sideway movement, but very little, especially if worn with vambraces. Later gauntlets allowed even less sideway movement.
And yet, Balassi was a sabre-user, and a good one, if the records are true.

Ham, is there anything worth considering in my crazy theory, or is it just another piece of my idiotism?

ham · 13th October 2005, 10:11 PM

Ahriman,

Not idiotic at all, sounds quite consistent with the use of the saber in Eastern Europe. Why not experiment a bit in honor of Balassi and let us know. But you'd best hurry, his birthday is next week!

Sincerely,

Ham

Aqtai · 13th October 2005, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Tony supports his N. African provenance theory with a number of features from a number of pieces, so its not really unsupported in terms or argument (he gave a very interesting talk on it at the EEWRS dinner a couple years back). His position is, as Ariel points out, the subject of debate, and certainly based on empirical observation and deduction rather than historical or local information.

There are some ways to reconcile the two, for example taking into account that Ottoman troops may have brought it with them to places like Egypt during the Ottoman Empire period, or influence going the other way via trade or population movement. I think one unanswered question is how far back the style goes, which is always an interesting question to me, as it can open up possiblities of cross-cultural influence, or exclude others that would have post-dated the earliest appearance of the style (for example in this case, if it predates Ottoman presence in N. Africa).

This makes sense to me. Many of the best Ottoman troops in the 18th and early 19th century were "irregular" units who used their own traditional weapons and clothing. I wouldn't be surbrised if Laz units were stationed in Egypt or North Africa. After all Muhammad Ali Pasha who was Ottoman Governer of Egypt in the early 19th century and went on to become virtual dictator of Egypt, started his career as an officer in an Albanian "irregular" Unit, and he relied heavily on his fellow "Arna'ut" during his rise to power. On a another completetly unrelated (and slightly daft) side issue, that sword does bear a striking resemblence to the Ancient Egyptian khopesh...

Mark · 14th October 2005, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

On a another completetly unrelated (and slightly daft) side issue, that sword does bear a striking resemblence to the Ancient Egyptian khopesh...

Actually, I think that very point was raised in an early discussion of black sea yataghans on the old UBB forum. I don't think anyone ran with it, but I do see the similarity (except for the pommel).

ariel · 14th October 2005, 01:05 AM

Ham,
The only thing I can advise you is to get a full-size Laz Bicagi and try to wield it in any way you wish (sa long as it is far from your nose...). After that do the same with kinjal and shashka.
Then you will understand.
BTW, was gauntlet sword (see above) reminescent of Pata?

Ahriman · 14th October 2005, 06:23 PM

I have an idea, Ariel. Send me pictures, good, close pictures of a simple black sea yataghan with quite exact sizes. As both my ex and current girlfriend, and my best friend, and me myself like the shape, I'll have to make one soon.
So I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won. If not, then choose any simple, undecorated piece of armour, I'll make it for free. But if we won, I'll hand over the sword to my ex-girlfriend... and if even she can cut down to the bone (not into it, she's rather weak nowadays), we'll get the original sword. Deal?

BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course. Mostly dieing from sickness, so it was free prey to our blades.

("Almost" means that I mostly use zornhauen with huge swords... so the lying hog's skull's lower area stopped the cut after travelling several inches in it after getting in from almost the back. The spine was cleaved through anyway.)

BTW, I think it bears more similarity with the greek version. Lighter blade, though. And it's similar to a few acinaces' as well.

Rivkin · 14th October 2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

ISo I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won...BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course.

A good and thin metal string or lancet will cut meat far better than any hand and a half sword... Does not mean they are good weapons.

12th October 2005, 08:19 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	By the way Please remember that this thread is about the sword, not the history of ethnic groups in Asia Minor. I am following the thread closely, and be advised that if the Laz "issue" gets out of hand (as it has once before) I am going to drop a hammer on all involved. The editorializing has really reached the limits of permissible discussion here, and bans will be issued if necessary. The Moderogre

13th October 2005, 07:47 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, A colleague at the EEWRS meeting kindly lent me the printed material which Mr. Tirri passed out in support of his proposed North African attribution to this type of sword shortly after it took place. It has been a while but as I recall, Tirri's arguments were based upon 2 points: a formal relationship between the Black Sea yatagan and the flyssa (he argued that one was derived from the other, I think it was that the yatagan came from the flyssa), failing to note that both are just provincial developments off the yataghan which likely occurred coevally, one in North Africa and the other in the Transcaucasus. Secondly, he compared the decorative characteristics which generally appear on flyssas with those on a particular Black Sea yatagan in his possession-- the only one I've ever seen with such designs-- it almost certainly was decorated in North Africa. This was a more defensible point that his first, however his conclusion was marred by the fact that he could produce but a single example in support of it. As Mark says however, the range of the Ottoman military was considerable; this type of sword could easily have found its way from Eastern Anatolia to the African Provinces. In any case, Tirri deserves credit for his research as well as for putting forth an original thesis. Ariel, regarding your observations above: "I handled quite a lot of them. The point is very, very thin, almost needle-like and I saw several with bent points. The forked pommels break easily (see the original picture in this thread). Also, the horns protrude so much that wrist bending is almost impossible: worse than tulwars with oversized dish pommels. As a former fencer (foil and saber), I could not wield it with ease no matter what kind of grip I used. On the other hand, since these swords were primarily "pirate" type weapons (that's what Lazes did on top of smuggling) they were sure scary! As a psychological warfare these swords were great but technologically they were less than adequate." In the simplest terms, you are comparing apples and oranges. If, as you say, your practical experience with edged weapons is limited to fencing-- a sport so highly conventionalized that any beginner knows it is remote even from the use of rapier and smallsword whence it derives, and one designed for use with very specific equipment NOT intended for cutting-- then any pronouncement you make on the use of weapons other than the foil or saber, i.e. the Black Sea yatagan, the tulwar, or for that matter anything designed for use with the drawcut is, regretably, invalid. Relative rigidity in the wrist was key to the effective use of these weapons, which is why their pommels were prominent in one way or another. The stroke was accomplished primarily with the shoulder and elbow in a quick drawing motion across the body-- Stone mentions this under his entry on shamshirs, pg. 550. Having done much of his research in situ over a century ago, Stone was fortunate enough to witness many of these weapons in actual use-- and while those days have passed, we can benefit from his observations as well as those of others who were able to do so. I often wonder why students and collectors so rarely do. As far as broken ears and bent tips, who can say whether these come from use or misuse over time? Concrete, little boys, adults after one too many beers, and power tools are the recognized nemeses of old swords, you know. Rivkin-- Yes, I was referring to the burka, a singularly impermeable and exceptionally warm, if generally odiferous, garment. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 13th October 2005 at 10:05 PM.

12th October 2005, 06:27 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,886	How right you are. What a shame Mr Tirri should get something like this so wrong. Those pictures show wonderfull plain working weapons, thanks Tim.

12th October 2005, 08:01 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	The first time I saw this guy I thought "what a weird manding/sudanese sabre"

12th October 2005, 08:14 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I was told that this weapon is specifically associated with Laz pirates.

13th October 2005, 08:07 PM	#7
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	I was just about to write about that "sport" thing Ham mentioned... so now, I won't. Just one thing. We, hungarians, used mostly sabers, especially after 1500. One of our warrior-poets, Balint Balassi, who died from a leg-removing nice little cannonball, had a gothic gauntlet recordedly. Gothic gauntlets don't really allow much wrist movement, just up and down and rotation. And of course, a bit sideway movement, but very little, especially if worn with vambraces. Later gauntlets allowed even less sideway movement. And yet, Balassi was a sabre-user, and a good one, if the records are true. Ham, is there anything worth considering in my crazy theory, or is it just another piece of my idiotism?

13th October 2005, 10:11 PM	#8
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ahriman, Not idiotic at all, sounds quite consistent with the use of the saber in Eastern Europe. Why not experiment a bit in honor of Balassi and let us know. But you'd best hurry, his birthday is next week! Sincerely, Ham

14th October 2005, 01:05 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ham, The only thing I can advise you is to get a full-size Laz Bicagi and try to wield it in any way you wish (sa long as it is far from your nose...). After that do the same with kinjal and shashka. Then you will understand. BTW, was gauntlet sword (see above) reminescent of Pata?

14th October 2005, 06:23 PM	#12
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	I have an idea, Ariel. Send me pictures, good, close pictures of a simple black sea yataghan with quite exact sizes. As both my ex and current girlfriend, and my best friend, and me myself like the shape, I'll have to make one soon. So I'll make the sword by the sent parameters soon after receiving them. And sharpen it fully, of course. And do a little test-cutting, both with hacking cuts and with draw cuts on a nice big piece of meat. If I can cut down to the upper area of the bone with the draw-cut, and if I can repeat it three times, we won. If not, then choose any simple, undecorated piece of armour, I'll make it for free. But if we won, I'll hand over the sword to my ex-girlfriend... and if even she can cut down to the bone (not into it, she's rather weak nowadays), we'll get the original sword. Deal? BTW, test-cutting on meat is a very good thing. It won't dull your blades much, and you'll have an idea of their cutting power. I could almost behead a hog with one strike with my old dopplehander. A dead hog, of course. Mostly dieing from sickness, so it was free prey to our blades. ("Almost" means that I mostly use zornhauen with huge swords... so the lying hog's skull's lower area stopped the cut after travelling several inches in it after getting in from almost the back. The spine was cleaved through anyway.) BTW, I think it bears more similarity with the greek version. Lighter blade, though. And it's similar to a few acinaces' as well.