Different Borneo sword

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Ofcourse it could be original, as there is always to be found an exception of the rule.
But looking at the whole feature of Roy's blade, it looks very weird if that would be original, and I've searched my database and can't find any similar blade with such blunt tip.

Hello Maurice,

Thanks for stepping in.
Do you have examples of these similar blades with different blade tips ?
I mean parang blade, both sides flat + decorated.

I agree that if you look at the complete blade of Roy's example, you would think that it is too blunt.
But if you compare the tip with mine example, mine is just slightly more pointed, as indicated with my new attempt in paint

Roy's pictures of the entire blade and of the tip of his blade are both under different angles, so they do not give a exact angle, but i guess you get my point based on below comparisson.

[VVV]

Sorry Willem, it seems like we misunderstood each other before.
Having a blunt tip, like your reference sword above and several in my collection, is not that unusual.
What is very rare (unless if it is a jimpul - then it is only quite unusual) is if it is almost square, like Roy's.
What is also quite unusual is that if the tip is blunt it doesn't slowly narrow down (for instance by resembling a stair case, like yours) before it becomes blunt. The abrupt way Roy's blade ends just doesn't follow the esthetics of Borneo parang.
Also, if you compare the proportions of your tilang kemarau with Roy's you will find that they are not the same.
For instance, compare the length of yours with Roy's 21 1/2". Your parang is "normal" in proportions, Roy's is not.

However, if you lengthen the tip of Roy's - either with (1) a "stair case" like yours, (2) an inverted saber point (more round and then pointy), or (3) a mix where it first goes down round like (2) and then stretches out to finish with a blunt (but still not square) point (like the one from Ashoka above which happens to be mine now) - you will find that it suddenly has the same proportions and esthetics like yours.
This is the reason why I (and maybe also why Maurice?) suspected that there once had been a break at the point - the blade proportions/esthetics/design on Roy's does not follow those of all the different categories of Borneo parang.

Willem, please let me know if any part of my explanation is difficult to understand and I will add some pictures? Sorry, sometimes I have the bad habit to take some things I have in my head for granted without making sure that the one I am discussing with also both get the implicit and agrees with it.

Michael

PS To illustrate how the Iban seem to hate square angles at tips I use the most extreme example, the jimpul, which is the only parang getting close to being square. Still they avoid it with either: protrusions rounding off the otherwise squarish tip; elongating the tip so it become more of a slope; rounding it etc.

[VVV]

Willem,

Here is an alternative, and perhaps better, explanation to what I first tried to imply.
Below is one of my parang (unfortunately an ilang but the rest resembles Roy's quite a lot), probably from the Baram river up north of Sarawak, with several similar features as Roy's.
Imagine that you broke the tip after the first "stair step".
To regain the lost blade esthetics you then try to insinuate the other two (now lost) stair steps with small cuts to retrieve the harmony of a stair case of three again.
Due to lack of space between the original stair step and the new tip there is unfortunately only room for an almost insignificant rounding of the tip which make it almost square in appearance - and voilà!

Michael

[Indianajones]

Hi all,
For me its not so easy to back my statements up with pics as I dont collect Dayak anymore. So I rely -on Dayak items- on pics I find online. I do have this old pic from a few of my mandau's/etc.; see below. With a Murutmandau I mean the MIDDLE example, which is quite similar to the one Willem has brought up (comparason pic). Unfortunately I did not make any pics of the blade, but also this one had the engravings and the copper lines near the narrow end of the blade near the grip. It did not have a blunt end which is now suddenly so much discussed.

At least even Michael is of the (same) opinion that those engraved blades originate from the North-Sarawak; Baram-river region. Although I suspect it originates still a bit more northernly (direction of Murut).

Question; What type of mandau/parang did the Kelabit use actually?
Point I have been making is; the blade and engravings Roy's blade has are from an area which usually displays -to my 'modest' knowledge- a different kind of grip. So the discussion of the blunt ending might just not bring us to the answer that is asked, is it?

It seems to me -as many Dayakcollectors are attending this forum- that noone has a mandau with similar grip??? That would be a rare phenomena, wouldnt it?

[Indianajones]

Found some pics of a somewhat similar example; it has the same type of (blunt ended) blade with the engraving and copper inset. Interestingly the scabbard is made of also a softer kind of wood as is Roy's grip. If its the same (type of) wood is ofcourse impossible to say (from pics) and than there's the problem of 'ascribing to a region/tribe'.
I can already hear everybody shouting 'Iban' again he he he (me too as it hasnt got the 'what I call' Murut type of grip n scabbard n engr. bars near grip)

See another comparative pic of a grip (deerhorn though) which sits on again a engraved blade. The carved features on this grip have some similarities TMHO; see the interconnecting vines, small 'whirlpools' (2 curved V's) and the "extension" beyond the grips 'horizontal'end. I put Roy's grip inbetween for convenience. (no worries;compar.exp.= sold)

Enjoy n look forward to the replies.

[VVV]

Indiana,

Now it seems like you are deviating from the topic again.
I don't see how your posting of your ex-parang somehow brings any new input to the parang we are discussing?
However, they look quite nice so why don't you publish them in a another thread so we can discuss them separately?

Anyway, you don't really need to own a lot of Borneo parang yourself to learn about them. There are a lot of museum databases on the Internet with provenanced Borneo blades and you can also quite cheap both visit museums and other collectors if you want to handle the swords yourself. It's much cheaper than buying them all yourself and within a couple of years you have acquired a lot of reference pictures for your coming studies.

On attributing Roy's parang to North Sarawak, that has never been an issue. The puzzle here is not where the blade comes from but why it looks so strange compared to all the 100's of related blades that I, Maurice, Arjan and some other Borneo collectors not active on this forum have in our study files. Also the handle is of lesser importance IMHO (but I admit that this assumption could of course easier be questioned).

On your reference parang it seems to be a jimpul related sword, which Roy's isn't, which makes it irrelevant as I brought up already in my earlier mail. That was the reason I only published the tips in my earlier post, to not bring in pictures of non-relevant blades in this thread to avoid spreading confusion.
Why don't you take your time and try to find something that will carry on the discussion if you don't like my attempt in two latest posts?

Michael

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Willem, please let me know if any part of my explanation is difficult to understand and I will add some pictures? Sorry, sometimes I have the bad habit to take some things I have in my head for granted without making sure that the one I am discussing with also both get the implicit and agrees with it.

Michael

Thanks Michael,
I must admit that I thought your opinion was more or less based on your wish to categorize these weapons. (which is a noble goal btw)

Now I see that your opinion is laregely based on understanding the esthetics of the shape.

Thanks again.

Best regards,
Willem

[Maurice]

I did spend some time this afternoon, searching one with a similar blunt tip, but was unable to find anything what even looks like it (privat- and museumcollections).
Only one matched, but of particular piece I'm sure it had been cut off (I discussed that one with Arjan quite a while ago), as seen on the decoration which was also "cut off" at the end.....



Attached image: partly image of the ex Nijmegen museum piece of a similar decorated blade, showing the tip.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Too bad this interesting thread ends with discussing just blade-ends." It clearly doesnt bring us anywhere. Or let me ask the question than; Where does that lead us??

I'm not searching my images to get a similar blade tip for your sake, so I don't care if you're disappointed and feel like it is "too bad this interesting thread ends with discussing just blade-ends.
I'm doing my efforts for Roy and other collectors who appreciate my efforts.
Also I think my (borrowed) image has more similarities with Roy's piece as all of your posted pieces. But anyway, let's keep to the topic!

Originally Posted by Indianajones

(the first mandau I showed with the somewhat simple scabbard (of softer wood) does look almost the same as Roy's , but ofcourse I seem to be mistaken???)

Are you referring to the "blade tip"? Otherwise I don't see the similarity...

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Also Roy brought up a quite interesting question I have overlooked myself (as first attributing this piece to a specific region as seems logical) about the square hole. This hole is indeed 'very square' and seems to be created that way for a specific reason. Normally these holes are for insertion for (human) hair, but clearly a hole doesnt need to be so pronouncedly square to have hair inserted!

As Michael allready stated earlier, this is not uncommon, and I've seen these square holes with and without hair.

Originally Posted by Indianajones

But nevermind this (highly interesting) question and lets talk about something else (unimportant!).

Maybe we find other things more important as you do. Sorry for our shortcoming....

Maurice

[David]

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Too bad this interesting thread ends with discussing just blade-ends. It clearly doesnt bring us anywhere. Or let me ask the question than; Where does that lead us??
(the first mandau I showed with the somewhat simple scabbard (of softer wood) does look almost the same as Roy's , but ofcourse I seem to be mistaken???)
Also Roy brought up a quite interesting question I have overlooked myself (as first attributing this piece to a specific region as seems logical) about the square hole. This hole is indeed 'very square' and seems to be created that way for a specific reason. Normally these holes are for insertion for (human) hair, but clearly a hole doesnt need to be so pronouncedly square to have hair inserted!
But nevermind this (highly interesting) question and lets talk about something else (unimportant!).

Seriously Indiana, i suggest that you concentrate your efforts more on bringing more of your own to the conversation and spend less time ragging on the contributions of others. Member will lead the their own questions in directions that interest them and you are just as free to do the same yourself. Present your questions, state your case, but don't demand of others that they find the same things "important" and "interesting" as you do.
And btw, i do not see how this threaded has in any way come to an "end".

[Royston]

Hello Gentlemen

Thanks for all the interest and comments so far.

Sorry not to have taken part for a while but I am away from home and the internet connection here is terrible, it sometimes takes over an hour just to get a logged in !
I will not be back at home for another 3 weeks so cannot take any more photos.
On my return I will try and get some close-ups of both the end of the blade and the hilt.
I'll also double check to see if any of mine are similar but I am sure they are not.

My gut instinct is that has been "trimmed " down, but I would love to be proved wrong.

Thanks again

Roy

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Royston

Sorry not to have taken part for a while but I am away from home and the internet connection here is terrible, it sometimes takes over an hour just to get a logged in !

Wow... is that in Wales or Scotland.