Different Borneo sword

[asomotif]

Sorry to bring in yet another blade, but this one from my collection has quite some similarities imho.

Adding a better picture of the blade and blade tip / 2nd april.

[VVV]

Yes Willem, from your comparison it shows that the tip is shortened and how it maybe looked before.

Roy, do you have any more "ordinary" Iban parang in your collection that you could place next to this one in a picture so we easier can judge its proportions?

Michael

[Indianajones]

Wel (Michael!) from both Willems example (and the one I attached) we may derive that the -perhaps somewhat blunt- ending of the blade does NOT mean it was originally longer.

Also Willems example has a handle which shows a bit more the Murut sort of grip and carved symbols as I know them. Many of this type have large tufts of human hair attached under the (metal) bands of the scabbard. The engravings on his are also similar but lack the dividing in different sections. This example also confirms that we are in the right area, namely in the most North East Sarawak corner where the Iban meet the Kelabit and Murut.


Anyone has a mandau/parang which has a similar grip? That would really help!

To be clear; not all Murut used/wore a 'pakayun' (long curved parang with forked grip).
Also with the Bahau-tribe I did not mean the tribes living around the Bahau river (near Apokayan if I recall correctly) but a tribe on the Mahakam river neighboured by Modang, Busang and Kenyah.

I believe the points (knowledge n experience) I make are clear enough to bring us closer to the answer, hopefully?!?.

Best,W

[VVV]

Indiana,

I question your claim that the sharply blunt tip is original but I do not mind to be proven wrong.

Can you please post a resembling Iban (or Murut?) reference sword with (at least almost) identical blade features to prove your point? (I am not interested to see any jimpul etc. but blades that actually belong to the same kind of category as this one.)

I prefer the tradition of this forum to back up one's claims with proper references (either scholarly works or reference swords with documented origin), instead of praising one's own "knowledge n experience" as an argument.

Michael

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Yes Willem, from your comparison it shows that the tip is shortened and how it maybe looked before.

Roy, do you have any more "ordinary" Iban parang in your collection that you could place next to this one in a picture so we easier can judge its proportions?

Michael

Hello Michael,

Probably it is not very clear on my previous pictures. I made some new / better ones.
My blade is missing one curl on the blade tip.
With my limited skills in paint I have tried to recreate this missing curl.

Based on this picture with the recreated curl I still want to suggest that Roy's blade can be original.

Best regards,
Willem

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Based on this picture with the recreated curl I still want to suggest that Roy's blade can be original.

Ofcourse it could be original, as there is always to be found an exception of the rule.
But looking at the whole feature of Roy's blade, it looks very weird if that would be original, and I've searched my database and can't find any similar blade with such blunt tip.

I found an image though of a blade with similar brass inlaid decoration as on Roy's blade, but can't post it as it's an image from the former museum of Nijmegen and belongs to a friendcollector who made it there, and unfortunately I'm not allowed to post it here.
That one hasn't a blunt tip for what it's worth.

Maurice

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Ofcourse it could be original, as there is always to be found an exception of the rule.
But looking at the whole feature of Roy's blade, it looks very weird if that would be original, and I've searched my database and can't find any similar blade with such blunt tip.

Hello Maurice,

Thanks for stepping in.
Do you have examples of these similar blades with different blade tips ?
I mean parang blade, both sides flat + decorated.

I agree that if you look at the complete blade of Roy's example, you would think that it is too blunt.
But if you compare the tip with mine example, mine is just slightly more pointed, as indicated with my new attempt in paint

Roy's pictures of the entire blade and of the tip of his blade are both under different angles, so they do not give a exact angle, but i guess you get my point based on below comparisson.

[VVV]

Sorry Willem, it seems like we misunderstood each other before.
Having a blunt tip, like your reference sword above and several in my collection, is not that unusual.
What is very rare (unless if it is a jimpul - then it is only quite unusual) is if it is almost square, like Roy's.
What is also quite unusual is that if the tip is blunt it doesn't slowly narrow down (for instance by resembling a stair case, like yours) before it becomes blunt. The abrupt way Roy's blade ends just doesn't follow the esthetics of Borneo parang.
Also, if you compare the proportions of your tilang kemarau with Roy's you will find that they are not the same.
For instance, compare the length of yours with Roy's 21 1/2". Your parang is "normal" in proportions, Roy's is not.

However, if you lengthen the tip of Roy's - either with (1) a "stair case" like yours, (2) an inverted saber point (more round and then pointy), or (3) a mix where it first goes down round like (2) and then stretches out to finish with a blunt (but still not square) point (like the one from Ashoka above which happens to be mine now) - you will find that it suddenly has the same proportions and esthetics like yours.
This is the reason why I (and maybe also why Maurice?) suspected that there once had been a break at the point - the blade proportions/esthetics/design on Roy's does not follow those of all the different categories of Borneo parang.

Willem, please let me know if any part of my explanation is difficult to understand and I will add some pictures? Sorry, sometimes I have the bad habit to take some things I have in my head for granted without making sure that the one I am discussing with also both get the implicit and agrees with it.

Michael

PS To illustrate how the Iban seem to hate square angles at tips I use the most extreme example, the jimpul, which is the only parang getting close to being square. Still they avoid it with either: protrusions rounding off the otherwise squarish tip; elongating the tip so it become more of a slope; rounding it etc.

[VVV]

Willem,

Here is an alternative, and perhaps better, explanation to what I first tried to imply.
Below is one of my parang (unfortunately an ilang but the rest resembles Roy's quite a lot), probably from the Baram river up north of Sarawak, with several similar features as Roy's.
Imagine that you broke the tip after the first "stair step".
To regain the lost blade esthetics you then try to insinuate the other two (now lost) stair steps with small cuts to retrieve the harmony of a stair case of three again.
Due to lack of space between the original stair step and the new tip there is unfortunately only room for an almost insignificant rounding of the tip which make it almost square in appearance - and voilà!

Michael

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Willem, please let me know if any part of my explanation is difficult to understand and I will add some pictures? Sorry, sometimes I have the bad habit to take some things I have in my head for granted without making sure that the one I am discussing with also both get the implicit and agrees with it.

Michael

Thanks Michael,
I must admit that I thought your opinion was more or less based on your wish to categorize these weapons. (which is a noble goal btw)

Now I see that your opinion is laregely based on understanding the esthetics of the shape.

Thanks again.

Best regards,
Willem