East Javanese Keris(es) - Discussion

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, any blade can go into any dress, and once there, you match the hilt to the scabbard, and you call it a such& such keris in accordance with the scabbard & hilt, but if you then remove the blade so it can be seen, you classify the blade into the appropriate tangguh.

Bearing in mind that we don't really know exactly where this scabbard is from, it is probably OK to fit a north coast hilt.

[A. G. Maisey]

You might be right Jean. I haven't been able to have a good look at this blade yet, I've exceeded my usage allowance and the net has slowed to a crawl. I won't comment on this blade until I can download it and play around a bit with it in PS

[simatua]

another figural keris...... Iam nor sure this is an old one ( modifacation ?) or an kamardikan Madura keris.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just a few thoughts which occurred while reading this thread.
I decided to post them, just in case something means something to somebody. . On the other hand, everything may be totally irrelevant!
If it's all useless info, i.e. garbage, then my post can be deleted:

- As I often like to mention, there are a lot of different keris protocols out there.
Some older than others.

Alan, I believe, adheres to the Kartasura/Surakarta protocols.
The governing manuscripts are composed no earlier than 19thC.(with the exception of one of those dealing with keris forms; attributable(?) to Sunan Kalijaga composed in c.1482).
It appears that they have become the de facto, de jure, protocol of the mainstream.
It saddens me that even those who have their own protocols choose to abandon them and join the mainstream.
But, I suppose that's the way of the world today.

- Pangeran Wijil's manuscript on the history of empus was composed c. 1726-45. So not long ago in terms of keris history.

- As regards Cirebon:
The Sunda still regard Cirebon as Sunda, albeit considered to be highly 'Jawa-nized'. It is interesting though that many members of its royal family still consider themselves Sunda, while a majority(?) of the people consider themselves as 'Cirebon'.
It was a centre of Muslim power and recognized the political sovereignty of Mataram via a treaty in 1590.
Hanyokrokusumo referred to the Sultan of Cirebon (who also became his father-in-law) as 'teacher'.

- Pajajaran: I consider a Jawa-construct. There is no reference to a 'Pajajaran' kingdom in Sunda manuscripts.
The name only appears in Jawa manuscripts, of anonymous authorship and composed/compiled no earlier than late 19thC.

- Bear in mind that many 'primary sources' may be 'anonymous' and 'oral tradition' as well as historiology.

- Again, it boils down to what one believes in/ has faith in or what one wants to believe in/wants to have faith in.


Please excuse the interruption.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

I doubt that anybody who has looked closely at keris related matters will argue with much of what you've written, Amuk Murugul. In fact, I think most of what you've said has been published in various past threads on this forum.

However, none of it has a lot to do with what this thread was supposed to be about, which was the possible identification of keris from East Jawa.

Admitted, I've given tentative classifications of a some of the keris shown, and these classifications are based on the Surakarta mainstream. That mainstream has become wider in recent years, with the inclusion of quite a few classifications that do not seem to have been part of the original Surakarta system, but admitted, the mainstream system still has at its foundations the system that was developed in Surakarta.

Back in the 1970's Garrett Solyom made this same point, that the system which is mostly used in the study of keris is a Solonese, rather than an all encompassing Javanese system.

Whether or not this is a valid approach is a question that could generate unending discussion, however, it is beyond question that the Karaton Surakarta is the senior royal house of Jawa, and as such its protocols and beliefs do tend to take precedence, as they have done for a long time.

The way in which the keris has developed as a societal icon in Jawa has resulted in it becoming a part of, and possibly central to the beliefs which form a part of Kejawen beliefs. This does not mean that we need to disregard other systems of belief, but if I were to start talking about the keris as it is now, in terms that ceased to apply after the demise of Javanese-Hindu society, nobody would have the slightest idea of what I was raving about. Thus, if I wish to be understood it is probably adviseable that I try to couch what I write in terms that most people will understand.

That keris knowledge, as it exists within Javanese society, is a system of belief is undoubtedly true.

However, in this thread, we are not really addressing keris knowledge as such knowledge is understood in Jawa, rather, we are using a recogniseable geographic area and attempting to identify the keris types which may originate from that area.

My little forays into Tangguh Land are really a side issue.

[Bjorn]

I'm curious, are or were bondolan hilts ever used in East Java? I seem to recall reading that they were and that they are squat and thick, like the bondolan found on Madura. But perhaps I simply remembered incorrectly?