Armour?

Ahriman · 2nd October 2005, 01:06 PM

Thanks, both vambraces are very nice... and the upper one has that more solid metacarpal plate I missed. Is that mail riveted? It seems very thin...

Thanks for the swords as well... They are indeed better for horseback usage, especially as they mostly lack a real thrusting point... They were VERY lucky with avoiding open combat against vollharnischers...

A good harness is quite hard to defeat with cuts, even with a good wide twohander, and most, especially milanese, harnesses were able to repel arrows, even from average crossbows in the 500-550 pounds area.

Aqtai · 2nd October 2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Thanks, both vambraces are very nice... and the upper one has that more solid metacarpal plate I missed. Is that mail riveted? It seems very thin...

I'm afraid the book doesn't tell me if the links are rivetted or not. But from what I've read almost all Indian mail made before 1750 AD used rivetted links.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Thanks for the swords as well... They are indeed better for horseback usage, especially as they mostly lack a real thrusting point... They were VERY lucky with avoiding open combat against vollharnischers...

A good harness is quite hard to defeat with cuts, even with a good wide twohander, and most, especially milanese, harnesses were able to repel arrows, even from average crossbows in the 500-550 pounds area.

I'm not so sure about that. Ottoman cavalry used almost identical equipment to the mamluks, indeed some actually was Mamluk equipment captured after the Ottoman conquest of Egypt in 1517. Unlike the mamluks, the Ottomans fought many battles against western Europeans in the 15th and 16th centuries, many of which the Ottomans won, like the battle of Mohacs in 1526.

Islamic cavalry had a different style of fighting, they would stay away from the enemy shooting arrows from horseback, they would only engage in hand-to-hand combat after the enemy was weakened and exhausted.

BTW I found this picture of the back of an Ottoman krug at oriental-arms.com.

The shoulder piece would be connected to the back-plates with mail links or leather straps, then the whole assembly would be attached to the front of the armor with leather straps and buckles and worn over a mail shirt.

I don't think these shoulder plates and back plates are a matching set though, the shoulder plates look much bigger.

Ahriman · 13th October 2005, 12:34 PM

Damnit, I've found halfswording in a moghul painting...

In the topic of crossbows.

BTW, 1500 is quite at the end of the age of plate. Then a well-equipped mercenary (landsknecht) had only minimal protection compared to earlier soldiers. You know, equipping 5000 soldiers from the same money as 2500 halves the money/soldier... Because of this, a well-equipped merc had a skull-cap, a gorget (face left open), breastplate (often without back), tassels, and usually legs, sometimes demigauntlets. And sometimes, they had splinted arms, or even full gauntlets. And remember, these were the best soldiers of the time. They could use their armour to stop attacks quite well, but they had vital areas exposed.
And when these fell, their leaders in full-plate had to run. You know, no matter how good is you armour, when you are surrounded by axe- dagger- sword- mace- hammerwielding enemies, you have no other chance.
And by 1526, muslim artillery was superior compared to ours. But remember, most of our nobles drowned while running... which means that the vollharnischers were not defeated in "open combat", "just" overnumbered by 1-999999999.

Afterall, it was truly a huge defeat, caused by our leaders' arrogance and ignorance... it was a much bigger factor than equiptment.

Fighting style: I know... but that would've hurt "only" the poorer soldiers. Which were the 90% of the army.

I think that we should've stayed at our old nomad tactics... by converting to christianity, we had to use knights and so... we forgot good eastern tactics, and we failed to perfectly adapt western ways as well.

Krug: thanks, nice picture, and I think you're right - it's like assembling the 2m+ italian harness with a regular one.

I will post the gauntlet pictures soon, but I'm quite busy, and my camera is wrecked.

Aqtai · 13th October 2005, 10:26 PM

I also saw that picture in the crossbow topic. I guess I've just learned something new. I know nothing though about how Oriental and Islamic swords were used. I know India has got a rather elaborate martial arts system of its own called Gatka, it could be this a gatka manoevre. However I know absolutely nothing about Gatka either, other than the fact that modern practitioners all appear to be Sikh, so it may be a purely Sikh martial art.

I'm looking forward to seeing your finished armour.

Ahriman · 5th December 2005, 10:51 AM

Oi!
I was away for a while, buried under work...

I couldn't take a picture of the remade vambrace I mentioned... my camera was dead then, and my sister bought one for herself only a few days ago... but the buyer will most likely send me the pictures, if he doesn't forget it.

It turned out very nice, and I blackened the whole thing - looks good.

Yesterday, I finished another eastern vambrace, I'd like to hear your opinions. The plate is 1.5mm CR steel, the rings are 8mm diameter and are 1.5mm thick. Every plate except the border ones are fluted, flutes being 5mm high, except on the longest plate, where they are 10mm, and on the central metacarpal plate, where there's only a touch of fluting, about 1mm. There's a strap under the knuckles, and straps and buckles at wrist and at 2 point of the vambrace. The mail on the wrist is laced with a leather bit. Soon, I'll get pictures of the buyer wearing it.
Lower part of the vambrace is extremely wide, as the buyer uses golves almost equivalent to hockey gloves, and would stand up by themselfes against blunt sabers.

The pictures are rather low quality, as this camera costed 15$... :-///
And I took the photos in dark... but they are, I think, usable.
Closeup on the flutes, before blacking.

One laid out, one compacted... :-)

And a full picture.

BTW, did they ever make helmets like the spangenhelm, but joined with mail? I think I've seen something like this somewhere, but I'm not sure. And if it did exist, would it be OK for that vambrace and a krug?

Aqtai · 5th December 2005, 03:15 PM

Hi Ahriman, welcome back!

Nice work on that vambrace.

Helmets of the type you described were used in India from the 16th-19th century (and probably a lot earlier).

Here's one from the Royal Armouries in Leeds:

Another one from the Royal armouries:

This one is from "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...6th-17thC3.jpg

You seem to be going for a very Indian look at the moment.

Other helmets of the same type from the Royal Armouries:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ate_17th_c.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ard_17th_c.jpg

Oh yes, I recently found this picture of a 15th century Mamluk Krug, look familiar?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...amlukKrug1.jpg

Ahriman · 5th December 2005, 05:39 PM

Wow, thanks, very useful pictures...

Again, something I thought I invented...

Is it possible that either the krug got there, or these helmets got to the turks? The buyer with the new vambraces would like them combined, and I'm curious that how correct would this be.

Yes, I simply love indian stuff, btw... Maybe with small alterations here and there...

2nd October 2005, 01:06 PM	#1
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Thanks, both vambraces are very nice... and the upper one has that more solid metacarpal plate I missed. Is that mail riveted? It seems very thin... Thanks for the swords as well... They are indeed better for horseback usage, especially as they mostly lack a real thrusting point... They were VERY lucky with avoiding open combat against vollharnischers... A good harness is quite hard to defeat with cuts, even with a good wide twohander, and most, especially milanese, harnesses were able to repel arrows, even from average crossbows in the 500-550 pounds area.

13th October 2005, 12:34 PM	#3
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Damnit, I've found halfswording in a moghul painting... In the topic of crossbows. BTW, 1500 is quite at the end of the age of plate. Then a well-equipped mercenary (landsknecht) had only minimal protection compared to earlier soldiers. You know, equipping 5000 soldiers from the same money as 2500 halves the money/soldier... Because of this, a well-equipped merc had a skull-cap, a gorget (face left open), breastplate (often without back), tassels, and usually legs, sometimes demigauntlets. And sometimes, they had splinted arms, or even full gauntlets. And remember, these were the best soldiers of the time. They could use their armour to stop attacks quite well, but they had vital areas exposed. And when these fell, their leaders in full-plate had to run. You know, no matter how good is you armour, when you are surrounded by axe- dagger- sword- mace- hammerwielding enemies, you have no other chance. And by 1526, muslim artillery was superior compared to ours. But remember, most of our nobles drowned while running... which means that the vollharnischers were not defeated in "open combat", "just" overnumbered by 1-999999999. Afterall, it was truly a huge defeat, caused by our leaders' arrogance and ignorance... it was a much bigger factor than equiptment. Fighting style: I know... but that would've hurt "only" the poorer soldiers. Which were the 90% of the army. I think that we should've stayed at our old nomad tactics... by converting to christianity, we had to use knights and so... we forgot good eastern tactics, and we failed to perfectly adapt western ways as well. Krug: thanks, nice picture, and I think you're right - it's like assembling the 2m+ italian harness with a regular one. I will post the gauntlet pictures soon, but I'm quite busy, and my camera is wrecked.

13th October 2005, 10:26 PM	#4
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I also saw that picture in the crossbow topic. I guess I've just learned something new. I know nothing though about how Oriental and Islamic swords were used. I know India has got a rather elaborate martial arts system of its own called Gatka, it could be this a gatka manoevre. However I know absolutely nothing about Gatka either, other than the fact that modern practitioners all appear to be Sikh, so it may be a purely Sikh martial art. I'm looking forward to seeing your finished armour.

5th December 2005, 10:51 AM	#5
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Oi! I was away for a while, buried under work... I couldn't take a picture of the remade vambrace I mentioned... my camera was dead then, and my sister bought one for herself only a few days ago... but the buyer will most likely send me the pictures, if he doesn't forget it. It turned out very nice, and I blackened the whole thing - looks good. Yesterday, I finished another eastern vambrace, I'd like to hear your opinions. The plate is 1.5mm CR steel, the rings are 8mm diameter and are 1.5mm thick. Every plate except the border ones are fluted, flutes being 5mm high, except on the longest plate, where they are 10mm, and on the central metacarpal plate, where there's only a touch of fluting, about 1mm. There's a strap under the knuckles, and straps and buckles at wrist and at 2 point of the vambrace. The mail on the wrist is laced with a leather bit. Soon, I'll get pictures of the buyer wearing it. Lower part of the vambrace is extremely wide, as the buyer uses golves almost equivalent to hockey gloves, and would stand up by themselfes against blunt sabers. The pictures are rather low quality, as this camera costed 15$... :-/// And I took the photos in dark... but they are, I think, usable. Closeup on the flutes, before blacking. One laid out, one compacted... :-) And a full picture. BTW, did they ever make helmets like the spangenhelm, but joined with mail? I think I've seen something like this somewhere, but I'm not sure. And if it did exist, would it be OK for that vambrace and a krug?

5th December 2005, 03:15 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Hi Ahriman, welcome back! Nice work on that vambrace. Helmets of the type you described were used in India from the 16th-19th century (and probably a lot earlier). Here's one from the Royal Armouries in Leeds: Another one from the Royal armouries: This one is from "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...6th-17thC3.jpg You seem to be going for a very Indian look at the moment. Other helmets of the same type from the Royal Armouries: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ate_17th_c.jpg http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ard_17th_c.jpg Oh yes, I recently found this picture of a 15th century Mamluk Krug, look familiar? http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...amlukKrug1.jpg

5th December 2005, 05:39 PM	#7
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Wow, thanks, very useful pictures... Again, something I thought I invented... Is it possible that either the krug got there, or these helmets got to the turks? The buyer with the new vambraces would like them combined, and I'm curious that how correct would this be. Yes, I simply love indian stuff, btw... Maybe with small alterations here and there...