Removing Epoxy

[Spunjer]

a previous owner used epoxy to bind the blade in the handle. i've tried heat gun and acetone (not at the same time!!!), and was able to dig some of the epoxy.

any suggestions on how to remove this?

[ariel]

Fresh one is easily removed with alcohol. Guess a long-term immersion in same might work on the congealed one as well. Veuve Clicot is not vicious enough, but South African White Rhum or Montenegrin Loza will dissolve anything. At least that what my guts told me.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

a previous owner used epoxy to bind the blade in the handle. i've tried heat gun and acetone (not at the same time!!!), and was able to dig some of the epoxy.

any suggestions on how to remove this?

Kind of depends what the hilt is made of Spunjer.
If it's an all-metal hilt that's not going to be hurt by chemicals then you can sort of go for broke, but if it's a composite/fragile material then you might simply have to dig it all out physically, if lucky with a dremel and an engraving bit.

What are we talking here? What type of hilt and how much epoxy?

Personally I'd try using something like petrol or white spirit and leave it to soak in. Acetone will evaporate before it gets a chance to get into the 'join'.
See if you can loosen the bond between the epoxy and the hilt or blade then get them apart.

Failing that you could try one of the 'professional solutions':
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you...lve_epoxy_glue

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

What are we talking here? What type of hilt and how much epoxy?

Personally I'd try using something like petrol or white spirit and leave it to soak in.

Failing that you could try one of the 'professional solutions':
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you...lve_epoxy_glue

Hilt is wood, but it's covered with metal. The acetone was working to a certain degree; whatever epoxy that was exposed, i was able to dig it out with a nut picker (my wife doesn't know it yet, lol). After letting it dry, heat was applied to the blade and it turned the epoxy into a crumbly putty-like. The epoxy that seeped deep inside is the one that i can't get to budge and i reckon the only way to loosen this was some type of chemical.
Ariel, can you buy those products you mentioned at the local Lowes hardware?

[Martin Lubojacky]

Hi Spunjer,
to remove epoxy adhesive you should use special dissolvents which vere made for this purpose. You will "google" whot is for disposal in your country, for sure. We have here "Epoclean Ceresit 51" or epoxy stripper "AX53" - allegedly suitable for wood surface. But I think you could only remove thin layers chemically...
Regards,
Martin

[Spunjer]

Thank you, Martin.
Went to our local hardware and found a spray can called Jasco's. Seems to strip the epoxy albeit very slowly.

[Lee]

I used MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) on my protobudiak. I would soak for 4 to 8 hours and then pick at the epoxy with a dissecting needle, freeing a few millimeters, then back to soaking. Very slow, but the silver and the iron tang and the wood appeared undamaged by the treatment.

[TimW]

WD40 also has the annoying tendency to creep under epoxy... Or if you have the possibility (depending on the object): heat entirely in the oven...

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Lee

I used MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) on my protobudiak. I would soak for 4 to 8 hours and then pick at the epoxy with a dissecting needle, freeing a few millimeters, then back to soaking. Very slow, but the silver and the iron tang and the wood appeared undamaged by the treatment.

thanks for that link, Lee. seems like i'm heading in the same direction; in that this is going to take days to come off. where did you get the dissecting needle? the nut picker is a tad too big...

tim, i might try the wd40 as well. as far as placing the whole sword in the oven, that's pretty much out of the picture; i do use the heat gun (rated to 700 deg), i can concentrate the heat on a particular area.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

thanks for that link, Lee. seems like i'm heading in the same direction; in that this is going to take days to come off. where did you get the dissecting needle? the nut picker is a tad too big...

tim, i might try the wd40 as well. as far as placing the whole sword in the oven, that's pretty much out of the picture; i do use the heat gun (rated to 700 deg), i can concentrate the heat on a particular area.

Hi Spunjer,
Not a dissolving agent, but you mention tools for picking. If you have a local dentist, try him/her for worn/broken tools. I did this with great results....all sorts of shapes and sizes....
Stu

[A. G. Maisey]

It would perhaps assist a recommendation if we had a pic of the object, however I have never failed to remove a blade from a hilt by playing heat directly on the blade. I've never used a heat gun, I've never used any sort of chemicals to attempt dissolving the bond. You don't need to get the metal that is in contact with the adhesive all that hot, certainly not hot enough to affect the heat treat, and it is a simple matter to restore the blade once you've got it free of the gunk. I mostly use a gas torch, but I've been doing this sort of stuff for a very long time, its probably safer to use a candle, which is what I use when I'm away from home.

The simplest solution is often the best in any situation, and there's nothing more simple than a bit of heat direct to the blade. Javanese and other Indonesian weapons mostly have their blades fixed to the hilts with adhesive, and that adhesive gives way at about the same temperature as epoxy resin. M'ranggis have been mounting and demounting blades in the way I describe for hundreds of years.

With the torch I clamp the blade about mid point in a vice, wrapped in newspaper of course so the vice doesn't mark the blade, then I play the torch over both sides of the blade and at the same time work the hilt back and forth with my other hand. You can make sure the blade doesn't get too hot by continually testing the heat in the blade a few inches from where you're playing the torch.

With a candle, I wrap cloth around the blade and grip it with one hand, grip the hilt with the other hand and hold the blade over the candle flame, alternating sides.

I've probably demounted a few hundred old blades in this way since I started in this game.

[Spunjer]

thanks for the head's up, Stu!

this particular blade is frustrating the crap out of me, Alan. when i etch most of my blades, i usually take it off the handle, that way it would be uniform throughout and i won't have to worry about the acid (vinegar) seeping where the blade and the handle meets.
i've been removing the blade the same way you've instructed, but for some reason, this one just won't budge. i will take some pictures of my progress so far, if that's what it's called, lol.

[fearn]

You can get dissecting needles on Amazon, or Carolina biological. If you happen to live near a biggish college or university, you can also get them at the student store, since they're standard equipment for freshman biology labs. If you've got a particular crack you're trying to clean out, it's not a bad idea to check out such a student store, because they often have all manner of weird tools in the biology dissection and art areas.

As for alcohol, you can get some pretty high grade methanol (70%) at a pharmacy. Some states in the US sell everclear (100% ethanol) which is another dandy solvent, as is cheap, unflavored vodka (70% ethanol).

I'm a big fan of slow and steady. The alcohol will dehydrate the wood somewhat, so if you heat stress it too often, you may develop a crack. The key thing is that alcohol evaporates at a low temperature, so you don't have to get your oven very hot to drive it off. HOWEVER, alcohol vapors are also flammable, so I strongly recommend low heat and an electric oven, not a gas oven, unless you like blue flames. Remember also that if you evaporate a solvent, you're likely to end up breathing some of it. With ethanol, this isn't much of a problem, but other things are rather more toxic. I do suggest reading the warning label before playing with it.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

[A. G. Maisey]

Any possibility of a pin through the tang?

[Spunjer]

Thanks for everyone's feedback so far!
I've attach some pictures of what i'm working on.
Alan, i don't think it's pinned, but i'm beginning to wonder if the strap to the asang-asang is welded by rust. after taking some very close up pics, i can see where the strap looks like there's rust, but then again, it could just be the epoxy. i have tried methylene chloride, MEK, and acetone, but so far none of these worked. and heat. if the rust is bonding the strap to the handle, how do i go about in loosening this up?

[Robert]

Hello Spunjer, I've been watching this thread with great interest as I too have a piece that has been put together with epoxy and need the same help that you are looking for. As to the kris you are working on, I have one that the strap going to the asang-asang was actually nailed to the hilt. Do you think that this could be the same for yours?


Robert

[A. G. Maisey]

I've never worked on one of these Philippine pieces, however, a couple of things do occur to me.

Firstly I'd remove the covering on the hilt if this is possible, in order to ensure there was no pinning of either the tang or the support stirrups.

The second thought is this:- if those stirrups go up into the hilt and there is adhesive holding them too, it is entirely possible that the heat transfer through these much thinner pieces of metal is insufficient to heat the adhesive to the point where it will let go.

If you can get the metal hilt covering off it might be easier simply to cut away the wooden hilt inside the cover and replace it.

The tangs on the things I work on are very often bonded with rust, and then it becomes a matter of repeated heat treatments over days , or even weeks, and working the hilt back and forth under heat, Eventually they let go, but sometimes the rust is so bad it totally penetrates the tang and you need to replace that when you get it free.

[kai]

Hello Ron,

I'm with Alan: Try heating and completely cooling down the blade several times before giving up! I've also stuck a stubborn blade into dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide) for a larger temperature amplitude during the heating/cooling cycles.

The tangs on the things I work on are very often bonded with rust, and then it becomes a matter of repeated heat treatments over days , or even weeks, and working the hilt back and forth under heat, Eventually they let go, but sometimes the rust is so bad it totally penetrates the tang and you need to replace that when you get it free.

I also agree that the first thing to do is to remove the sheet metal and textile from the grip (both modern and crappy looking IMNSHO ); I assume that you'll go for a decent grip braiding later on?

I don't think it will be necessary to cut the wooden grip for removing the tang though - just work patiently on it for several weeks if necessary...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Robert's suggestion is a good one:

As to the kris you are working on, I have one that the strap going to the asang-asang was actually nailed to the hilt.

Yes, nails, or traditionally pins, wire, or some other binding may fasten the strips to the hilt.

I don't think that rust to the clamp strips is causing the problem but generous use of epoxy may add to the problem.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Fearn,

I'm a big fan of slow and steady.

Yeah, me too. IMHO, harsh chemicals should be used very, very cautiously if at all!

If you really need to soak in a solvent, I'd remove the pommel if seperate from the grip piece. The solvent may need weeks or months to evaporate completely...

Remember also that if you evaporate a solvent, you're likely to end up breathing some of it. With ethanol, this isn't much of a problem, but other things are rather more toxic. I do suggest reading the warning label before playing with it.

I'd second that! I'd even make a point of downloading and reading the MSDS (material safety data sheets) from the website of any large chemical supply company for any chemical that you contemplate to utilize.

Better safe than sorry!
Regards,
Kai

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ron,



I also agree that the first thing to do is to remove the sheet metal and textile from the grip (both modern and crappy looking IMNSHO ); I assume that you'll go for a decent grip braiding later on?



Regards,
Kai

yes, i concur with you regarding the butt ugliness of the grip, but please don't tell my wife that. it was her old dish towel (secured by a gray duct tape) that i use to wrap the handle so i can have a good grip while i worked on it
there are no pins or nails securing the asang2x. Alan did make a good point:

The second thought is this:- if those stirrups go up into the hilt and there is adhesive holding them too, it is entirely possible that the heat transfer through these much thinner pieces of metal is insufficient to heat the adhesive to the point where it will let go.

i'm exploring it from this angle at the moment; perhaps a micro butane torch aimed at the stirrups might help loosen the strips attached to it.

[A. G. Maisey]

Spunger, if you feel confident to use a micro torch --- which in my experience can sometimes be more severe than a normal size torch --- why not use a normal torch with a nice bushy flame that will put heat into both the blade and the stirrups at the same time?

Are you able to get at the wood core of this hilt to cut it away?

I reckon that's the way I'd be going if I'd tried the normal route and it has failed, its an easy thing to replace a hilt core, and once the thing is together again you cannot see the core. To my mind this is no different to demounting a blade and remounting with fresh adhesive.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot really understand whats going on with the pictures you post. Perhaps some fine metal snips even big scissors might let you advance in a can opener way. So you can see whats what?

[Spunjer]

Yes!
placing the heat closer to the stirrups helped, i'm guessing, or perhaps it finally weakened after messing with it for more than a week!
it was a challenge removing this handle without altering anything. i actually thought about what you suggested, Tim, regarding snipping the stirrups awhile back, but that was going to be my last resort. anyway, posting pictures of the aftermath, for future reference.
i was able to scrape most of the epoxy inside the handle. i've enclosed pictures of it, and also the tools of the the trade (homemade shanks).
thank you all, esp. to you Alan!

[A. G. Maisey]

Nice to see Spunger!

Wonderful thing what can be done with perseverance.

Those little stirrups don't go up very far, do they? As I've said, I am not familiar with these weapons I've never had one apart, but I had a mental picture of the stirrup running up inside the hilt for maybe a couple of inches.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Those little stirrups don't go up very far, do they? As I've said, I am not familiar with these weapons I've never had one apart, but I had a mental picture of the stirrup running up inside the hilt for maybe a couple of inches.

Usually these are running along the outside of the wooden grip area rather than inside the hilt hole (along the tang); in Ron's example, the metal strings appear to have been shortened to be placed along the tang by an epoxy wielder trying an repair job despite being not terribly knowledgeable regarding Moro kris...


Here's a pic of an asang-asang made from a single piece of metal:


And here the usual hilt configuration (without braided grip binding which would also secure the clamp or metal strips):


Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Congrats, Ron!

That looks like a bit of brittle stuff coming off, too. Remnants of the original resin?

BTW, please let us have an unobstructed peek at the hilt/pommel, too!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Kai, that clarifies things for me.

[Spunjer]

here's a close up of the handle.. sorry, i had it all assembled together before i read your request, kai.
had this kris for awhile. just didn't like the space between the handle and the blade with the epoxy actually bulging out in some areas.
as far as the variation on how the strap is assembled, i've seen this done before, whereas the straps run inside the handle as oppose to the outside. the only difference on this is how short the strap was; normally it's about the length of the tang itself.

[kai]

Thanks for the pic, Ron!

as far as the variation on how the strap is assembled, i've seen this done before, whereas the straps run inside the handle as oppose to the outside. the only difference on this is how short the strap was; normally it's about the length of the tang itself.

Yeah, the short(ened), pointed pieces don't look right.

I have yet to see an example with strips running inside the hilt that proves to be at least 19th c. and being unaltered; I guess this may rarely be a genuine feature, especially with hilt types that don't favor attachment to the outside. However, this construction would not offer any benefit over any tang-only attachment (like most other swords of the region).

Regards,
Kai