The Omani Shamshiir.

[ariel]

Can you show a close-up of the decorative motif?
Also, how does the knot differ from other ( Badawi, Hyderabadi) ones?

The bottom line, I'd like to see better pics and have a bit more explanation.
Thanks, Ibrahim and Lotfi!


And, BTW, the idea of shamshir likely came to Iran from the Arabs who, in turn, got it from the Khazars during 2 centuries of trying to break their defences and invade Europe from the east. Charles Martel and Khazars preserved Europe as we know it.
But weapons were, indeed, widely appropriated and many had only decorative elements to distinguish them from their origins.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Can you show a close-up of the decorative motif?
Also, how does the knot differ from other ( Badawi, Hyderabadi) ones?

The bottom line, I'd like to see better pics and have a bit more explanation.
Thanks, Ibrahim and Lotfi!


And, BTW, the idea of shamshir likely came to Iran from the Arabs who, in turn, got it from the Khazars during 2 centuries of trying to break their defences and invade Europe from the east. Charles Martel and Khazars preserved Europe as we know it.
But weapons were, indeed, widely appropriated and many had only decorative elements to distinguish them from their origins.

Salaams Ariel ~Ya Thats what I'm doing and why I opened the thread. At #2 is about as close up as I've got which shows the Omani style in tooling on the leather and typical scroll work in the silver and gold. I'm in the Museum next month so I will continue to pour in the detail.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Namaste Ibrahiim,

Obviously the 'Shamshir' was a supremely influential weapon and certainly travelled widely.
If we just look at it's influence on European military officers swords loosely termed 'Mameluke', there are all stages of variation from actual unmodified shamshir and Kilij through imported remounted blades and of course the (majority) European swords simply made in the 'Mameluke' style (Ie; loosely emulating Shamshir).

So, when we look at your two examples they do seem to have been "lightly Omanicised". But are you saying that there are also 100% Omani made versions of these swords? (Say pre WW2?)
Because if so that would indeed be an interesting and distinct local 'version'.

I had to smile when I read "Inevitably the grand masters in Persia or Hyderabad were involved in making these swords" (The ones shown).
I found myself imagining a picture of the laundry room in the Titanic, full to the brim with Egyptian cotton sheets, towels, pillowcases and napkins and claiming that the Titanic was a Egyptian ship even though some Irish shipbuilders were inevitably involved in making her.

Teasing aside These locally dressed swords are interesting and clearly as has been pointed out would have been instantly recognisable (worldwide) as a fashionable cross-cultural status symbol which clearly survived as such in certain circles in Oman into the modern period.
You could fill a fair sized thread with pictures of all manner of the great and the good carrying Shamshir and Kilij in the 19th century.

However, from what I can see of the two above, I'd call them 'Lightly Omanicised Shamshir'

Regards
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Namaste Ibrahiim,

Obviously the 'Shamshir' was a supremely influential weapon and certainly travelled widely.
If we just look at it's influence on European military officers swords loosely termed 'Mameluke', there are all stages of variation from actual unmodified shamshir and Kilij through imported remounted blades and of course the (majority) European swords simply made in the 'Mameluke' style (Ie; loosely emulating Shamshir).

So, when we look at your two examples they do seem to have been "lightly Omanicised". But are you saying that there are also 100% Omani made versions of these swords? (Say pre WW2?)
Because if so that would indeed be an interesting and distinct local 'version'.

I had to smile when I read "Inevitably the grand masters in Persia or Hyderabad were involved in making these swords" (The ones shown).
I found myself imagining a picture of the laundry room in the Titanic, full to the brim with Egyptian cotton sheets, towels, pillowcases and napkins and claiming that the Titanic was a Egyptian ship even though some Irish shipbuilders were inevitably involved in making her.

Teasing aside These locally dressed swords are interesting and clearly as has been pointed out would have been instantly recognisable (worldwide) as a fashionable cross-cultural status symbol which clearly survived as such in certain circles in Oman into the modern period.
You could fill a fair sized thread with pictures of all manner of the great and the good carrying Shamshir and Kilij in the 19th century.

However, from what I can see of the two above, I'd call them 'Lightly Omanicised Shamshir'

Regards
Gene

Salaams Atlantia .. I haven't seen a fully home grown (all made in Oman) Shamshiir and I doubt if one exists. The closest I think may be from the turn of the century in a small production unit in Al Ain close to Buraimi but that is another story. Wootz is not something normally seen in Omani produced swords/daggers though there are instances where wootz blades have appeared on long Omani hilts matched later.

I agree with the idea of Omanised weapons ... Some weapons were produced in other countries and used and adopted here. That is true about the blades of the curved Omani Kattara and of gunpowder weapons from abu Futtlia to cannon to Martini Henry and Enfields. That can even be argued about the Omani Battle Sword as I illustrate it as "copied in"... from the Abasiid... in 751 AD.

I hope that my posts do not infer that Shamshiir in Oman were made in Oman... not at all ... but owning a sword signed by one of the great sword makers of Persia (a next door trading partner and in the past waring enemies/friends on and off) added great cudos to the weapon and the person weilding it (presumably ) and in that context I think the Islamic script ... and indeed the whole blade and hilt configuration held some powerful effect in this part of the world... apart from being the height of technology "bladed weapon wise" ~ it expressed a certain level in Arabian society...Rich Man-Rich Sword..The word "Icon" springs to mind.

These were sought after by countries close to Persia and made on commission or offered as the ultimate in royal/diplomatic gifts to visiting heads of state. Oman being right on that particular doorstep was the fortunate receiver of such "Royal" weapons and has a rich history with its neighbours.

In another way if we look at good European blades and the way they swept the world particularly Africa and even today continue to be rehilted on weird and wonderful foreign hilts. I mean no-one blinks at seeing a Solingen blade on an Omani, Ethiopian, Red Sea or Indian Hilt.

The Shamshiir is very much part of the Regal Scene and may have entered Omani culture early in its appearance. If my memory serves me well the great master was taken from Damascus to Isfahan in 16thC...and worked in the Safavid court royal workshops on such "Persian" Shamshiir.(although I do not forget the Hyderabad weapons probably traded in by the famous Hyderabadi Khojas... who later became absorbed as Omanis in Muscat)

Swords with expired great masters names on them in fact continued until ... today.

The Omanised bits of the weapon appear to be decorative and include the chape and drag plus other gold and silver work on the rings furniture and throat...and Omani tooled leather to the scabbard and possibly Omani work on the carrying belt. Here I must also place the unusual knot as apparently Omani. To that end it is indeed viewable as you describe as "Lightly Omanicised" but as I noted initially my focus is not just on the sword but on the person wearing it.

Thus; "The Omani Shamshiir".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia .. I haven't seen a fully home grown (all made in Oman) Shamshiir and I doubt if one exists. The closest I think may be from the turn of the century in a small production unit in Al Ain close to Buraimi but that is another story. Wootz is not something normally seen in Omani produced swords/daggers though there are instances where wootz blades have appeared on long Omani hilts matched later.

I agree with the idea of Omanised weapons ... Some weapons were produced in other countries and used and adopted here. That is true about the blades of the curved Omani Kattara and of gunpowder weapons from abu Futtlia to cannon to Martini Henry and Enfields. That can even be argued about the Omani Battle Sword as I illustrate it as "copied in"... from the Abasiid... in 751 AD.

I hope that my posts do not infer that Shamshiir in Oman were made in Oman... not at all ... but owning a sword signed by one of the great sword makers of Persia (a next door trading partner and in the past waring enemies/friends on and off) added great cudos to the weapon and the person weilding it (presumably ) and in that context I think the Islamic script ... and indeed the whole blade and hilt configuration held some powerful effect in this part of the world... apart from being the height of technology "bladed weapon wise" ~ it expressed a certain level in Arabian society...Rich Man-Rich Sword..The word "Icon" springs to mind.

These were sought after by countries close to Persia and made on commission or offered as the ultimate in royal/diplomatic gifts to visiting heads of state. Oman being right on that particular doorstep was the fortunate receiver of such "Royal" weapons and has a rich history with its neighbours.

In another way if we look at good European blades and the way they swept the world particularly Africa and even today continue to be rehilted on weird and wonderful foreign hilts. I mean no-one blinks at seeing a Solingen blade on an Omani, Ethiopian, Red Sea or Indian Hilt.

The Shamshiir is very much part of the Regal Scene and may have entered Omani culture early in its appearance. If my memory serves me well the great master was taken from Damascus to Isfahan in 16thC...and worked in the Safavid court royal workshops on such "Persian" Shamshiir.(although I do not forget the Hyderabad weapons probably traded in by the famous Hyderabadi Khojas... who later became absorbed as Omanis in Muscat)

Swords with expired great masters names on them in fact continued until ... today.

The Omanised bits of the weapon appear to be decorative and include the chape and drag plus other gold and silver work on the rings furniture and throat...and Omani tooled leather to the scabbard and possibly Omani work on the carrying belt. To that end it is indeed viewable as you describe as "Lightly Omanicised" but as I noted initially my focus is not just on the sword but on the person wearing it.

Thus; "The Omani Shamshiir".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salutations Ibrahiim,

Indeed many Omani Kattara have imported blades, both curved sabre type and straight 'broadsword' trade-blade type.
Ah! But all Shamshir and Kattara are Sayf, but not all Sayf are Shamshir or Kattara!
Although the "Shamshir" is a common sword type with many region specific variations I also don't remember ever seeing a Shamshir attributed to local production in Oman.
However, that said the slight Omani touches on these imported swords are still interesting and I'm sure would add a premium to Shamshir sold to Omani collectors.
I assume that you intend to have your silverworkers "Omanicise" some plain Shamshir emulating those you have shown?

These local re-dressings are interesting and it would be good to see some other historic examples of "Omanicised" Shamshir to compare the 'level' of re-dressing with the work on the two you show.


Regards
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Salutations Ibrahiim,

Indeed many Omani Kattara have imported blades, both curved sabre type and straight 'broadsword' trade-blade type.
Ah! But all Shamshir and Kattara are Sayf, but not all Sayf are Shamshir or Kattara!
Although the "Shamshir" is a common sword type with many region specific variations I also don't remember ever seeing a Shamshir attributed to local production in Oman.
However, that said the slight Omani touches on these imported swords are still interesting and I'm sure would add a premium to Shamshir sold to Omani collectors.
I assume that you intend to have your silverworkers "Omanicise" some plain Shamshir emulating those you have shown?

These local re-dressings are interesting and it would be good to see some other historic examples of "Omanicised" Shamshir to compare the 'level' of re-dressing with the work on the two you show.


Regards
Gene

Salaams Atlantia; Well that was a tongue twister and I'm still trying to fathom the ins and outs of your limeric about Kattaras and Sayfs

I've never seen a straight Omani Sayf dancing sword with a European blade and I've seen thousands of these blades. (except in the case of known rehilted jobs emanating through Mutrah Souk attached workshops and done in the last few decades there. They are all locally made blades and in the case of stamps of blade inscriptions they are all either copies of stamps or locally construed stamps.

The curved Omani Kattara on the other hand come in a variety of stamps both with and without and local as well as European stamps copied and/or original.

There is also to my knowledge no such animal as a localised Omani Shamshiir that you imagine are waiting to be given the full conversion to Omani like the ones at posts above. I have seen a couple of RAK old examples but I have no knowledge on the upgrading proceedure or when it was done or by whom. They all appear to be special commissions to which your next question is ... Well who added the Omani stuff ? I have absolutely no idea... but it is on my list to find out from the museums. I suspect commissioned to order perhaps from a Muscat specialist as yet not identified but attached to the Royal Court? Omani Shamshiir are dead rare. Ive never seen one outside of a museum which is where all my Omani Shamshiir exhibits are from (or a museum related book).

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Pictures from The Muscat Museum. I will have a better selection later. These are so rare that anything we can obtain for records is worth having.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia; Well that was a tongue twister and I'm still trying to fathom the ins and outs of your limeric about Kattaras and Sayfs

I've never seen a straight Omani Sayf dancing sword with a European blade and I've seen thousands of these blades. (except in the case of known rehilted jobs emanating through Mutrah Souk attached workshops and done in the last few decades there. They are all locally made blades and in the case of stamps of blade inscriptions they are all either copies of stamps or locally construed stamps.

The curved Omani Kattara on the other hand come in a variety of stamps both with and without and local as well as European stamps copied and/or original.

There is also to my knowledge no such animal as a localised Omani Shamshiir that you imagine are waiting to be given the full conversion to Omani like the ones at posts above. I have seen a couple of RAK old examples but I have no knowledge on the upgrading proceedure or when it was done or by whom. They all appear to be special commissions to which your next question is ... Well who added the Omani stuff ? I have absolutely no idea... but it is on my list to find out from the museums. I suspect commissioned to order perhaps from a Muscat specialist as yet not identified but attached to the Royal Court? Omani Shamshiir are dead rare. Ive never seen one outside of a museum which is where all my Omani Shamshiir exhibits are from (or a museum related book).

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Konnichiwa Ibrahiim,

I agree that all the modern straight Kattara probobly do have locally made blades. All the modern ones that I've seen are frankly 'only' fit for dancing with
But I've seen older ones with good double edged blades clearly of the same genre of trade blades exported en-masse from Europe, oft copied locally and seen in such varied incarnations as Kaskara, Mandinko swords, etc, etc...

Hold on, didn't I show you a short tang trade blade of the type commonly seen in Kaskara mounted up as a Kattara?

Anyway, the Shamshir.
What you seem to have above are two 'fairly standard' form Shamshir exported widely and in this incarnation re-dressed with some locally made mounts.
The form hasn't been altered a breath and if it wasn't for the close-up pictures you could easily not even notice that these have had a holiday in Oman.
I'm suprised that you're not going to source some plain or tatty shamshir and have your silverworkers redress them in Omani style?

As to 'who' added the Omani mounts to the originals?
These swords (and related types) were widely admired across half the world. Given the time you could probobly find dozens of retro-fitted and locally embellished Shamshir from as many different countries.
I would assume that these were simply imported of gifted swords given a slightly local flavour to 'Omanicise' them.

As to them being rare?
I would conjecture that many might not have been modified at all or only lightly re-dressed, so would only be distinguishable by knowledge of their actual provenance or possibly just by their scabbard?
Once removed from their direct history or parted from their Omanicised scabbard their 'connection' to Oman is lost.
Which is why the two complete examples that you show are so interesting.
There is no reason why Shamshir might not have been popular among certain wealthier "Omani" in times past and the majority might not have been modified at all.
So like many of our swords, their 'history' is lost over time.

Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ariel

*snip*
But weapons were, indeed, widely appropriated and many had only decorative elements to distinguish them from their origins.

Just so.