semi-dual edged badik?

T. Koch · 16th February 2013, 09:45 AM

That's some great looking horn on that last one Moshah, especially the color of the hilt.

Cheers, - Thor

Moshah · 16th February 2013, 11:19 AM

Thanks, Thor...but I believe it ain't a horn.

It is a sea ivory. See the dotted line on the pix below. Over here in Malaysia, I think it is not a common material for badik hilt. That's an observation, based on what I've seen, but still I haven't see a lot of things...

And it's aged well...ah, the sin of the heart...

Sajen · 17th February 2013, 03:25 PM

Beautiful badik!

And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

T. Koch · 17th February 2013, 07:20 PM

Interesting. When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to? I am not familiar with any marine ivory both displaying lamellar growth like that, and at the same time showing cracks along the axis shown above. Then again, there's probably a lot of sea mammals whose teeth I haven't seen myself - especially tropical ones.

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do.

Sweet looking badik regardless!

All the best, - Thor

Sajen · 17th February 2013, 07:59 PM

Hello Thor, you know what I would say!?

T. Koch · 17th February 2013, 08:10 PM

Hahaha, I do, I do - but hear me out bro!

If you look at the dots going across the bottom of the hilt, I just can't see any way that you can align this row with the TIZ running lengthwise along the inside of the tusk? Unless the above hilt is only like 3 - 4 cm long, the direction doesn't fit.

It's totally different from the badik hilt you posted recently. In yours the hilt aligns up nicely with the curve of a hippopotamus tusk and also remember - I agreed with you on that one!

Sajen · 17th February 2013, 10:42 PM

Maybe Moshah can enlighten us? What he think it is? And how long is the hilt?

Moshah · 18th February 2013, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to?

The real problem over here is that people are referring to sea ivory as "gigi" (i.e tooth), hence the better understanding and futher classification of sea ivory was somewhat fall short, because of the generalization of terming that has become a common practice around...

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?

The "dots in a row" was my ultimate indicator of a sea ivory, but again I am not so sure on rhino or hippo horns. The hilt was not big, about 5.8cm long...

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.

Blonde horn? You mean, hippo?
Attached were a series of pictures, where I believe would assist you in the further effort of it's ID. In the first pix I've highlighted the dots on the bottom and on the surface of the hilt, for easier identification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do.

Don't be, Thor, as what you do is something that I would like to do as well!

Moshah · 18th February 2013, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Beautiful badik!

And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks, Detlef.

Perhaps I would own as good & as much as yours, one day...

T. Koch · 18th February 2013, 06:44 AM

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...
That would mean that the hollow canal along the tusk core has been completely crushed by the dentine and now totally reduced to these little pin-prick impurities (spots in a row) we see. That's something I've never seen before, but then again freak incidents happen all the time in nature. -perhaps it happens once a hippo grows old enough, as the dentine layers keep packing on...?

Would be interesting to see a series of tusk cross sections lined up according to the age of the source animal.

Mosha, don't worry about what people call it. I deal with it on a regular basis too. Common people rarely know the exact scientific names of what they have. Unfortunately popular names are the scourge of useful investigation.

In regards to your question. Horn is for instance what cattle, antilopes and rhinoceros grow. They are composed of keratin - the same materials that make up hair, claws and nails.

Teeth are made up of dentine and enamel. The males (in most cases) of certain species of animals grow a particular set of large teeth made for combat - actual or ritual/demonstration - to determine their position in the group and predator deterrence (same thing as the above animals use their horn for). For example Elephant, narwhal and hippo. These particular teeth we call tusks.

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious!

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!

All the best, - Thor

T. Koch · 18th February 2013, 06:45 AM

Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two!

...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime!

Sajen · 18th February 2013, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two!

...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime!

Thank's!

Sajen · 18th February 2013, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious!

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!

Agree with you, the colour is beautiful. Maybe is was dyed originally but I think it's also with a very good age.

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah · 19th February 2013, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious!

Well I've heard about this practice too. But did it not that tea dyeing would usually turns up with a straight brownish hue on any surface the dipping takes place? Or if the whole hilt was totally submerged, you will get an even dyed tone, all over the hilt?

I think the badik hilt in question here has turned brownish / golden on the area where the finger or palm would be placed. Noted the uneven slight yellowish that appears on some spot, vertically.

I has one keris hilt with a suspected tea-dyeing treatment, where a straight line of golden tone was present, as if the hilt was partially submerged, heads up. Will post the pix later.

Thanks Thor for enlighten me up in this segment...it is not easy to pick up and tell this-and-that ivory on the go, but with your knowledge and input I think we should be able to do that soon

T. Koch · 19th February 2013, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...

Hi Mosha! Here it is the combination of the visible laminar build-up of dentine in combination with the dots in an angled row. These two combinations lead me to believe that we are dealing with hippo ivory. I will never give a statement in certainty about these things, unless I have the piece in hand. I generally advise anybody being cautious when performing an identification and never to do it based on a sole character trait alone. I've personally seen other ivory species which show either similar dots or similar laminations. With the two characters being present here together, i.e. the laminations and the dots, my belief is strong that it is indeed hippo ivory.

I asked a colleague today btw, if he knew whether hippo tusks grow continually through the life of the animal and even though he wasn't sure, he pointed out a supporting fact that I hadn't considered: When the hippopotamus closes it mouth, the apical surface of the tusks in the lower jaw grind against those of the tusks in the upper jaw, perpetually wearing down the tusks from the distal end. This taken into consideration, it would make highly sense for the tusks to keep on growing and renewing throughout the life of the animal.

I found a picture of a hippo skull where you can maybe get an idea of the tusks grinding against eachother:

16th February 2013, 11:19 AM	#2
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Thanks, Thor...but I believe it ain't a horn. It is a sea ivory. See the dotted line on the pix below. Over here in Malaysia, I think it is not a common material for badik hilt. That's an observation, based on what I've seen, but still I haven't see a lot of things... And it's aged well...ah, the sin of the heart... Attached Images

16th February 2013, 09:45 AM	#1
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	That's some great looking horn on that last one Moshah, especially the color of the hilt. Cheers, - Thor

17th February 2013, 03:25 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Beautiful badik! And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread. Regards, Detlef

17th February 2013, 07:20 PM	#4
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Interesting. When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to? I am not familiar with any marine ivory both displaying lamellar growth like that, and at the same time showing cracks along the axis shown above. Then again, there's probably a lot of sea mammals whose teeth I haven't seen myself - especially tropical ones. I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw? From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt. Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do. Sweet looking badik regardless! All the best, - Thor

17th February 2013, 07:59 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Thor, you know what I would say!?

17th February 2013, 08:10 PM	#6
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hahaha, I do, I do - but hear me out bro! If you look at the dots going across the bottom of the hilt, I just can't see any way that you can align this row with the TIZ running lengthwise along the inside of the tusk? Unless the above hilt is only like 3 - 4 cm long, the direction doesn't fit. It's totally different from the badik hilt you posted recently. In yours the hilt aligns up nicely with the curve of a hippopotamus tusk and also remember - I agreed with you on that one!

17th February 2013, 10:42 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Maybe Moshah can enlighten us? What he think it is? And how long is the hilt?

18th February 2013, 06:44 AM	#10
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits... That would mean that the hollow canal along the tusk core has been completely crushed by the dentine and now totally reduced to these little pin-prick impurities (spots in a row) we see. That's something I've never seen before, but then again freak incidents happen all the time in nature. -perhaps it happens once a hippo grows old enough, as the dentine layers keep packing on...? Would be interesting to see a series of tusk cross sections lined up according to the age of the source animal. Mosha, don't worry about what people call it. I deal with it on a regular basis too. Common people rarely know the exact scientific names of what they have. Unfortunately popular names are the scourge of useful investigation. In regards to your question. Horn is for instance what cattle, antilopes and rhinoceros grow. They are composed of keratin - the same materials that make up hair, claws and nails. Teeth are made up of dentine and enamel. The males (in most cases) of certain species of animals grow a particular set of large teeth made for combat - actual or ritual/demonstration - to determine their position in the group and predator deterrence (same thing as the above animals use their horn for). For example Elephant, narwhal and hippo. These particular teeth we call tusks. Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious! Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating! All the best, - Thor

18th February 2013, 06:45 AM	#11
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two! ...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime!