19th Century East India British Trading Company Flintlock ID?

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2013, 07:52 PM

Hi Richard,
Its really good to see you posting!!! especially on this subject as this is definitely your field. Very good point on the reasons concerning flintlocks as pertains to Khyber regions, and I had forgotten about the number of matchlock jezails. Actually my comment was likely more concerning the prolonged use of flintlocks on the frontiers here, and inadvertantly misplaced presuming the same circumstances there. I think Elgood noted the extended use of matchlocks in Arabia, even into 20th century, for likely same reasons.

Im not sure that EIC locks were ever made anywhere else, though they certainly ended up travelling far in some cases. England was long a prolific supplier of arms and materials to America's 'wild west', and swords, guns and particularly Bowie knives were in constant trade here. Many of these 'Bowies' were Sheffield, and many English pistols were used, even by some of the fabled gunfighters (shootists).

At the time of the Alamo, the Mexican army was virtually entirely equipped with British muskets, I think many came from a large dispersement of EIC arms as changes were being made in supply and providers. Im not sure that may of the locks had EIC stamps but they were EIC models.

All the best,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 12th February 2013, 02:32 AM

Hello Jim,

I don't mean to Not post!......just life gets in the way ever so often!
Pistol for a start;
The decoration says to me more Turkish than khyber, as it is very nicely done. It could be someone had a lock made up, the original being lost. Just one theory though...

Muskets;
I believe the muskets sold to Mexico were as you say, the "India Pattern", or Third Model, "brown Bess" These were Government contract arms though, and did not bear the markings of the HEIC. (As far as I am aware, at any rate!)
Again you are spot on, that many Birmingham/Wolverhampton locks wound up in the States, on varying arms, and "Out here" it was infinitley simpler to keep a flintlock running than having to scrounge up caps, or even cartridge cases in later years.

Very best wishes,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2013, 04:25 PM

Thanks very much Richard! and good point on the 'Ottoman' gestalt to the decorative motif. I agree that the style of the gun, as noted by Clemente, seems to resemble the later percussion style guns with the lanyard butt cap etc. I think that Ottoman styling probably well influenced same in areas in India as it did in Arabia and North Africa, simply by the nature of trade and diffusion. The lock seems to be a Khyber product as they were keen on EIC markings, while as far as I know these balemarks were not reproduced much elsewhere. The locks certainly could have moved toward trade entrepots entering various other spheres, but as noted I have seen photos of jezails with this type MOP motif as well.

Interesting note on Indian pistols though with British native cavalry, in the 1880s into 1900s the crossbelt buckles for officers often had prickers styled as arrows incorporated into the ornamentation. I have seen one of the 13th Bengal lancers with this feature, and it seems others as well. Whether simply traditional or functional unsure, but interesting in any case.
All the best,
Jim

dtaber2 · 13th February 2013, 11:26 PM

Thank you all for your informative responses. I've enjoyed the research that I've been able to gather thus far on this weapon. I see what everybody means by poor quality of the lockplate. Since reading this post, I've been able to examine several original pistols from this period and have noted many differences.

12th February 2013, 04:25 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks very much Richard! and good point on the 'Ottoman' gestalt to the decorative motif. I agree that the style of the gun, as noted by Clemente, seems to resemble the later percussion style guns with the lanyard butt cap etc. I think that Ottoman styling probably well influenced same in areas in India as it did in Arabia and North Africa, simply by the nature of trade and diffusion. The lock seems to be a Khyber product as they were keen on EIC markings, while as far as I know these balemarks were not reproduced much elsewhere. The locks certainly could have moved toward trade entrepots entering various other spheres, but as noted I have seen photos of jezails with this type MOP motif as well. Interesting note on Indian pistols though with British native cavalry, in the 1880s into 1900s the crossbelt buckles for officers often had prickers styled as arrows incorporated into the ornamentation. I have seen one of the 13th Bengal lancers with this feature, and it seems others as well. Whether simply traditional or functional unsure, but interesting in any case. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th February 2013 at 05:29 PM.

13th February 2013, 11:26 PM	#4
dtaber2 Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 2	Response.. Thank you all for your informative responses. I've enjoyed the research that I've been able to gather thus far on this weapon. I see what everybody means by poor quality of the lockplate. Since reading this post, I've been able to examine several original pistols from this period and have noted many differences.

11th February 2013, 07:52 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Richard, Its really good to see you posting!!! especially on this subject as this is definitely your field. Very good point on the reasons concerning flintlocks as pertains to Khyber regions, and I had forgotten about the number of matchlock jezails. Actually my comment was likely more concerning the prolonged use of flintlocks on the frontiers here, and inadvertantly misplaced presuming the same circumstances there. I think Elgood noted the extended use of matchlocks in Arabia, even into 20th century, for likely same reasons. Im not sure that EIC locks were ever made anywhere else, though they certainly ended up travelling far in some cases. England was long a prolific supplier of arms and materials to America's 'wild west', and swords, guns and particularly Bowie knives were in constant trade here. Many of these 'Bowies' were Sheffield, and many English pistols were used, even by some of the fabled gunfighters (shootists). At the time of the Alamo, the Mexican army was virtually entirely equipped with British muskets, I think many came from a large dispersement of EIC arms as changes were being made in supply and providers. Im not sure that may of the locks had EIC stamps but they were EIC models. All the best, Jim

12th February 2013, 02:32 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Jim, I don't mean to Not post!......just life gets in the way ever so often! Pistol for a start; The decoration says to me more Turkish than khyber, as it is very nicely done. It could be someone had a lock made up, the original being lost. Just one theory though... Muskets; I believe the muskets sold to Mexico were as you say, the "India Pattern", or Third Model, "brown Bess" These were Government contract arms though, and did not bear the markings of the HEIC. (As far as I am aware, at any rate!) Again you are spot on, that many Birmingham/Wolverhampton locks wound up in the States, on varying arms, and "Out here" it was infinitley simpler to keep a flintlock running than having to scrounge up caps, or even cartridge cases in later years. Very best wishes, Richard.