Kattara for comments

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th January 2013, 07:16 PM

Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag.

Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st January 2013, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag.

Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams~ This is another variant of the stamps available with Ras Al Khaimah sword makers. Readers may recall the Lion with Sword and the Taj Crown etc ... well heres another... The Stag Stamp; "Ras Al Khaimah". The same workshop region is also expert at making scabbards and long hilts. These appear to be by Shehu craftsmen and a similar stamp has been seen on their knife blades also called "Shehi"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd February 2013, 05:30 PM

Salaams ; Note to forum. The question as to where the Metalic Long Hilted Red Sea Variant see fits is interesting in that it could be the source of the Omani Long Hilt on both Curved Kattara and The Straight Omani Dancing Sayf.

It is now suggested that the sword is related to an Abassiid form at the Istanbul Military and Yemeni Military museums thus see the entire thread at;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16205

See my comparison with a sister weapon at # on this thread which needs to be added the very similar attributes on both swords in hilt design
1. Pointed pommel.
2. Pommel not part of the tang but separate though part of the hilt top configuration.
3. Rounded hilt probably octagonal following period mosque styles.
4. Cuffs in both styles.
5. Rivvet supported design in essentially two parts.
6. Quillons in one form and folded quillons supporting the cuff in the other and the slightly different design probably governed by the different length of blades.

In all respects the Red Sea Variant appears as a stretched Old Omani Battle Sword Hilt. In a separate assessment the Red Sea Variant could be the key link as the mother of the Omani Long Hilt on both Straight Sayf and Curved Kattara forms.

The question as to a link to the sword in the Wallace is open to speculation and obviously in itself a huge undertaking.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2013, 04:48 PM

Salaams all Note to Library.

See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...485#post152485 # 27 for an unfolding scenario closely linked to this thread.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th February 2013, 08:30 AM

Salaams all... For simplicity may I only refer to Kattaras and Sayfs on this thread as the other sword (Omani Battle Sword) has its own thread now? It may be an idea for separate Omani Curved Kattara, Omani Straight Sayf, and Omani Shamshiir threads in due course thus focussing the workload and avoiding duplication. Thinking aloud. So I have floated new threads one for each sword type but not the Omani Shamshiir.. yet

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gavin Nugent · 8th February 2013, 08:57 AM

Drawn from recent discussion in another thread I offer my opinions.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

The original untouched example I presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword....I should clarify though, if I put it in the floor boards and lent on it, it would bend 2"...but to compare, the Dagestan Shashka presented in my gallery is a very good fighting sword with all the Shashka qualities, feather light, razor sharp and vine flexible and the Shashka I can bend over 45 degrees with some effort. So having a flexible blade or not doesn't account in all instaces that it is a dance or ceremonial sword. Perhaps a blacksmith can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but often the lack of or removal of carbon can account for flexible blades.

I would suggest your post in this thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.

Regards

Gavin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th February 2013, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Drawn from recent discussion in another thread I offer my opinions.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

The original untouched example I presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword....I should clarify though, if I put it in the floor boards and lent on it, it would bend 2"...but to compare, the Dagestan Shashka presented in my gallery is a very good fighting sword with all the Shashka qualities, feather light, razor sharp and vine flexible and the Shashka I can bend over 45 degrees with some effort. So having a flexible blade or not doesn't account in all instaces that it is a dance or ceremonial sword. Perhaps a blacksmith can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but often the lack of or removal of carbon can account for flexible blades.

I would suggest your post in this thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.

Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin, I have just started a new thread on The Omani Sayf (and one on The Omani Kattara). This straight design is a pageant only sword..dancing only. Not a fighting weapon. I didn't see your blade nor did I perceive its flexibility but you may have a stiff blade (red sea?) on an Omani hilt in which case it could be a hybrid. Ive seen one or two before but they arent Omani dancing blades. Omani dancing blades bend 90 degrees or more. Tipu tip the great slaver didnt have one of these... his was a whopping Kattara curved single edge job.

Please show the blade and any stamps.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

2nd February 2013, 05:30 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams ; Note to forum. The question as to where the Metalic Long Hilted Red Sea Variant see fits is interesting in that it could be the source of the Omani Long Hilt on both Curved Kattara and The Straight Omani Dancing Sayf. It is now suggested that the sword is related to an Abassiid form at the Istanbul Military and Yemeni Military museums thus see the entire thread at; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16205 See my comparison with a sister weapon at # on this thread which needs to be added the very similar attributes on both swords in hilt design 1. Pointed pommel. 2. Pommel not part of the tang but separate though part of the hilt top configuration. 3. Rounded hilt probably octagonal following period mosque styles. 4. Cuffs in both styles. 5. Rivvet supported design in essentially two parts. 6. Quillons in one form and folded quillons supporting the cuff in the other and the slightly different design probably governed by the different length of blades. In all respects the Red Sea Variant appears as a stretched Old Omani Battle Sword Hilt. In a separate assessment the Red Sea Variant could be the key link as the mother of the Omani Long Hilt on both Straight Sayf and Curved Kattara forms. The question as to a link to the sword in the Wallace is open to speculation and obviously in itself a huge undertaking. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd February 2013 at 06:06 PM.

4th February 2013, 04:48 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all Note to Library. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...485#post152485 # 27 for an unfolding scenario closely linked to this thread. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th February 2013 at 05:10 PM.

8th February 2013, 08:30 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all... For simplicity may I only refer to Kattaras and Sayfs on this thread as the other sword (Omani Battle Sword) has its own thread now? It may be an idea for separate Omani Curved Kattara, Omani Straight Sayf, and Omani Shamshiir threads in due course thus focussing the workload and avoiding duplication. Thinking aloud. So I have floated new threads one for each sword type but not the Omani Shamshiir.. yet Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th February 2013 at 10:16 AM.

28th January 2013, 07:16 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag. Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

8th February 2013, 08:57 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My opinion Drawn from recent discussion in another thread I offer my opinions. Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword. The original untouched example I presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword....I should clarify though, if I put it in the floor boards and lent on it, it would bend 2"...but to compare, the Dagestan Shashka presented in my gallery is a very good fighting sword with all the Shashka qualities, feather light, razor sharp and vine flexible and the Shashka I can bend over 45 degrees with some effort. So having a flexible blade or not doesn't account in all instaces that it is a dance or ceremonial sword. Perhaps a blacksmith can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but often the lack of or removal of carbon can account for flexible blades. I would suggest your post in this thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony. I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east. The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such. The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old. Regards Gavin