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Jim McDougall · 25th September 2005, 08:53 PM

Antonio, I think that is an extremely well stated assessment of the dynamics of art in application, beautifully explained !! I see what you mean entirely

Thank you !!
Very best regards,
Jim

Antonio Cejunior · 27th September 2005, 01:35 AM

Dear Tim and Jim,

Thank you for your kind words.
Indeed the monetary value of an object, as a cell phone in gold, does not make it an art object.
But I would settle, as a first step, to see swords as decorative art.
I guess that prejudice don't allow most people to view swords at the same level as painting. I do understand it for it is extremmely hard for someone to get rid of everything which he was raised with. That is the power of culture as we understand it.
Tim, most kind of you. But while I understand "fantasy" pieces as swords from movies (I just can't imagine how vulnerable people are to what is sold to them) I believe the term I am focusing in should be contemporary swords as opposed to modern which is a period, as you know, referring to the Modernist movement.
I'll be holding a conference on the 15th. about Fire and Steel.
In fact, if we do not zoom out, we will never be able to show people how everything is connected.
I'll surely need some luck

Thank you both, gentlemen.

BTW, the catalog is available for order here

Very best

Rick · 27th September 2005, 02:34 AM

Hi Antonio ,
I think it is a tough row to hoe trying to get modern culture to accept swords as works of art without somehow gelding them (if even possible) of their real purpose in the doing .

Swords were meant to spill other mens' blood pure and simple ; they are an elemental tool used to impose one man's will upon another and in today's PC world this is a very high hurdle to overcome .

I believe the visceral reaction of most of today's 'modern' peoples (non sword aficionados) to art swords will be of a blood letting device ; albeit a very pretty one , and regardles of how new , still viewed as anachronistic , an object for achieving human destruction which is used in a very intimate way .

I guess that I come to this conclusion from interaction with my friends and acquaintances ; when they see my kerisses and krisses yes , they can appreciate the work and artistry but they are still creeped out by their intended function , not to mention the bloody history of some of them .

You face a challenge that is for sure ; for that matter we all face the challenge of being able to continue to possess these marvelous objects in the gathering storm of government sponsored weapons restrictions all over the world .

Antonio Cejunior · 27th September 2005, 02:47 AM

Hi Rick,

I agree. It is a tool of destruction. But so can a bronze ashtray be.
In other words, it is the change of mind frame that it is the challenge.
While in present day there are more terrible weapons such as a speeding car, it is not regarded as a suicidal or killer tool.

Anyway, let's hope it is a seed.

Rick · 27th September 2005, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Hi Rick,

I agree. It is a tool of destruction. But so can a bronze ashtray be.
In other words, it is the change of mind frame that it is the challenge.
While in present day there are more terrible weapons such as a speeding car, it is not regarded as a suicidal or killer tool.

Anyway, let's hope it is a seed.

You are correct Antonio but as Freud said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ."

I share your hope .

Antonio Cejunior · 27th September 2005, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

You are correct Antonio but as Freud said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ."

I share your hope .

Very right Rick,

However, if people start to link things, they should be able to understand things.

The head dress of this Amazonian Indian chief replicates the sun and the halo in as much as the halo in Russian icons and Christian iconography crowns the head.

This leads to the head and the crown. In other words, semiotics can help a lot, apart from Freud's cigar

But it seems that it will be a while before people will see the sword also as a phallic symbol, a symbol of power and so forth.

Well, anyway, it's off to work.
Very best

Mark · 27th September 2005, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I believe the visceral reaction of most of today's 'modern' peoples (non sword aficionados) to art swords will be of a blood letting device ; albeit a very pretty one , and regardles of how new , still viewed as anachronistic , an object for achieving human destruction which is used in a very intimate way .

You have put your finger on a central point, Rick. Most of use collect swords in large part for their aesthetic and historic value, and not for their quality weapons (at least I do). In viewing the sword as art (or any other weapon -- firearms are in the same situation I would say), this becomes part of the meaning, the tension, in the piece as a work of art. It is rather like some of the performance art of today, meant to shock you into seeing the world in a different light. On the one hand you see the beauty of the sword, on the other, their lethality. It forces you either to accept the duality of such things, or to see the lack of duality, if you will, between such extremes as art (life) and violence (death). Perhaps it is the yin-yang, perhaps it really is just one grey circle?

Antonio Cejunior · 27th September 2005, 04:34 PM

Interesting Mark,

In fact art as defined in a most traditional way, has always had a function, although many try to deny it. But if we talk about bhuddist art, religious art in general, it serves a purpose.

When it comes to provocation, the idea is meant to bring some food for thought. Let's talk about something also lethal:
The ketchup or mayonnese and the hamburger depicted in Pop Art. It was shocking at the time.

Yet it might have brought some thoughts on uniformization and industrialization of societies... which in some way is a political analysis.

But art has always had a political connection as well, either politically correct or ... incorrect

It is unbelievable that some people insist that art has no other purpose than be art... what is that???

27th September 2005, 02:34 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Observations Hi Antonio , I think it is a tough row to hoe trying to get modern culture to accept swords as works of art without somehow gelding them (if even possible) of their real purpose in the doing . Swords were meant to spill other mens' blood pure and simple ; they are an elemental tool used to impose one man's will upon another and in today's PC world this is a very high hurdle to overcome . I believe the visceral reaction of most of today's 'modern' peoples (non sword aficionados) to art swords will be of a blood letting device ; albeit a very pretty one , and regardles of how new , still viewed as anachronistic , an object for achieving human destruction which is used in a very intimate way . I guess that I come to this conclusion from interaction with my friends and acquaintances ; when they see my kerisses and krisses yes , they can appreciate the work and artistry but they are still creeped out by their intended function , not to mention the bloody history of some of them . You face a challenge that is for sure ; for that matter we all face the challenge of being able to continue to possess these marvelous objects in the gathering storm of government sponsored weapons restrictions all over the world . Last edited by Rick; 27th September 2005 at 02:46 AM.

25th September 2005, 08:53 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Antonio, I think that is an extremely well stated assessment of the dynamics of art in application, beautifully explained !! I see what you mean entirely Thank you !! Very best regards, Jim

27th September 2005, 01:35 AM	#2
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Dear Tim and Jim, Thank you for your kind words. Indeed the monetary value of an object, as a cell phone in gold, does not make it an art object. But I would settle, as a first step, to see swords as decorative art. I guess that prejudice don't allow most people to view swords at the same level as painting. I do understand it for it is extremmely hard for someone to get rid of everything which he was raised with. That is the power of culture as we understand it. Tim, most kind of you. But while I understand "fantasy" pieces as swords from movies (I just can't imagine how vulnerable people are to what is sold to them) I believe the term I am focusing in should be contemporary swords as opposed to modern which is a period, as you know, referring to the Modernist movement. I'll be holding a conference on the 15th. about Fire and Steel. In fact, if we do not zoom out, we will never be able to show people how everything is connected. I'll surely need some luck Thank you both, gentlemen. BTW, the catalog is available for order here Very best

27th September 2005, 02:47 AM	#4
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Hi Rick, I agree. It is a tool of destruction. But so can a bronze ashtray be. In other words, it is the change of mind frame that it is the challenge. While in present day there are more terrible weapons such as a speeding car, it is not regarded as a suicidal or killer tool. Anyway, let's hope it is a seed.

27th September 2005, 04:34 PM	#8
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Interesting Mark, In fact art as defined in a most traditional way, has always had a function, although many try to deny it. But if we talk about bhuddist art, religious art in general, it serves a purpose. When it comes to provocation, the idea is meant to bring some food for thought. Let's talk about something also lethal: The ketchup or mayonnese and the hamburger depicted in Pop Art. It was shocking at the time. Yet it might have brought some thoughts on uniformization and industrialization of societies... which in some way is a political analysis. But art has always had a political connection as well, either politically correct or ... incorrect It is unbelievable that some people insist that art has no other purpose than be art... what is that???