Maranao kris?

Sajen · 21st October 2012, 11:47 PM

Just win this kris by epray, the scabbard need some restore but I think that this can be fixed. The engravings are inlayed with brass like the seller stated. I think that it is a Maranao fighting kris from around 1900.

All comments are very welcome.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 22nd October 2012, 04:58 AM

It is hard to distinguish between Maranao and Maguindanao. I would lean toward Maguindanao due to the way the "elephant" profile is made.

kai · 22nd October 2012, 08:52 AM

Hello Detlef,

I also believe this blade is Maguindanao (also the hilt suits fine). Actually, I see no hints that speak for Maranao?

Does the kris really have a seperate gangya? Considering the scroll work, I'd lean towards a somewhat later date.

BTW, etched silver can look pretty much like brass. IMHO this is likely brass though; checking with a gentle polish wouldn't hurt, I guess.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 22nd October 2012, 04:20 PM

Hello Kai,

thank's for comment. Until now I haven't it in my hands so I can't say for sure if it has a seperate gangya. But have a look to the last but one picture; I think it's seperate. When the "brass" is silver would be nice, we will know for sure when I have received it.
Thank you for confirming the statement from Jose that it is a Maguindanao blade and your dating.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 22nd October 2012, 11:59 PM

Actually I think I do see a separate ganga and not one of those later engraved ones.

Kai I was thinking the same thing - the "brass" could in fact be tarnished silver, which would be easier to inlay than brass (I have inlaid both).

Rick · 23rd October 2012, 12:18 AM

There is something quite 20th century about the detail work; kembang kacang etc .

I think this is early post WWII .

Battara · 23rd October 2012, 02:44 AM

I have seen early post WWII and the workmanship on this is superior to that date. I would guess at early 20c.

I would change my mind if the ganga is not separate.

Rick · 23rd October 2012, 03:39 AM

It's just the lack of a transitional curve from the leading edge of the Sorsoran area through to the side of the blade that bothers me .
Its aspect is almost planar in nature; something I would not expect to see in a pre-WWII blade .

There must also be good examples extant of post WWII blades too .

David · 23rd October 2012, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

There must also be good examples extant of post WWII blades too .

I believe there are Rick and i think we have seen some of them in this forum. While quality in general has certainly fallen over the years there have always been at least a few good craftsmen around producing quality blades even after WWII.

Sajen · 23rd October 2012, 11:23 PM

Thank you all for your inputs. Agree with you that my dating was a little bit to early. The point Rick stated about the planar leading edge of the sosoran area is a very good one. Let us look what the blade has in summary: a most possible seperate gangya and a well made fret work but with planar leading edge. I have posted in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15589 a kris with a very similar fret work but with rounded edge which was dated from Kai after 1910. So is my uneducated guess that the one in question could be 1920 until 1930.

The very good patina from the handle let guess that this keris was many times handled and I have problems to belive that this would have been feasible by a kris from the time post WWII (again my uneducated guess). The most I have seen here from this time frame seems in my eyes pure dress/show/status kris.

Thank you again for this interesting discussion and I would like when it not ended here since I think we all can learn by this.

Best regards,

Detlef

Battara · 24th October 2012, 02:44 AM

Never thought about the planar issue..........hmm..........will have to look into that.........

kai · 24th October 2012, 09:45 AM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

It's just the lack of a transitional curve from the leading edge of the Sorsoran area through to the side of the blade that bothers me .
Its aspect is almost planar in nature; something I would not expect to see in a pre-WWII blade .

I do see the flat, rather 2-dimensional design at the base of the blade, especially of the elefant's head and associated features. This is seen in some post-"Span-Am war" kris and obviously related to the decrease in workmanship and/or availability of funds by the buyers during and after that war; while this decrease of quality seems to be gradual, there were still quite a few blades of distinctly higher quality produced until 1930 (and arguably continuing up to today).

If the gangya is seperate in Detlef's kris (seems quite possible), I'd also estimate this blade to be from the 1920-1930 period based on the blade alone. I agree with Detlef that the hilt (design, quality, patina) supports an age before WW2. (It should be noted that some kris were regularly handled and used for fighting up to the late 20th c. though.)

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 24th October 2012, 06:40 PM

Thank you Kai for confirming my guess. Soon as I have received the kris I will write here if the gangya is seperate.

Regards,

Detlef

kai · 24th October 2012, 08:16 PM

You're welcome, Detlef!

Please also post pics after staining the blade!

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 24th October 2012, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

You're welcome, Detlef!

Please also post pics after staining the blade!

Regards,
Kai

Will post as well pictures from the restored scabbard!

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 17th November 2012, 02:55 PM

Have received this kris as well. The gangya is indeed seperate and like supposed is the blade very well worked. Unfortunately is the brass inlay detached at one place. The kris is now by my friend for restore the scabbard. Soon as I have it back I will post pictures.

Battara · 17th November 2012, 06:49 PM

2 things:

First - I am glad the the ganga is separate, a good sign.

Second - I have discovered that when it comes to inlay, often the whole length of the inlay would often have to be replaced as well as the grooves re-engraved. I have had to do this in the past when you would think that only a section is all that is needed - wrong!

Sajen · 18th November 2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Second - I have discovered that when it comes to inlay, often the whole length of the inlay would often have to be replaced as well as the grooves re-engraved. I have had to do this in the past when you would think that only a section is all that is needed - wrong!

I have thought already like this!

BTW, you have pm.

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 01:06 AM

Here pictures from the restored scabbard.

David · 21st December 2012, 01:16 AM

Nice job!

ariel · 21st December 2012, 04:34 AM

What did you use on the scabbard to make it so beautiful?

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 01:49 PM

Thank you David.

Will give the compliment to my friend who have done indeed a great job.

Ariel, the scabbard was more demaged as I have thought before. Special in down from the scabbard where the two halfs meet was some wood missing. The wood is very weak and original from "white" colour. So after all wood work it was stained to the dark colour and get some coats from shellac.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 21st December 2012, 05:19 PM

Impressive work. Did not know it was even worse than expected.

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Impressive work. Did not know it was even worse than expected.

Hello Jose,

there were missing small stripes of wood where the two halfes of the gandar meet. And yes, my friend is a great master of restore work.

Regards,

Detlef

Robert · 22nd December 2012, 03:51 AM

Hello Detlef, Very nice repair and restoration work your friend did on the scabbard. One question though, did the scabbards on any of the older pre WWII Philippine pieces have any finish on the wooden parts originally? None of the ones that I have ever been able to be lucky enough to have come with the sharp pointy items I have collected have had no protective coating on them other than ones that have had both the scabbard and the blade coated in grease or have been completely coated in lacquer by a previous collector as a protective measure. The only thing that I have ever done on the wood is to do a hand rubbed wax finish. Hopefully one of the experts can give an answer on what if any finish these items originally had when first made. Again, I would like to complement your friend for the great work that he has done.

Regards,
Robert

Sajen · 22nd December 2012, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Detlef, Very nice repair and restoration work your friend did on the scabbard. One question though, did the scabbards on any of the older pre WWII Philippine pieces have any finish on the wooden parts originally? None of the ones that I have ever been able to be lucky enough to have come with the sharp pointy items I have collected have had no protective coating on them other than ones that have had both the scabbard and the blade coated in grease or have been completely coated in lacquer by a previous collector as a protective measure. The only thing that I have ever done on the wood is to do a hand rubbed wax finish. Hopefully one of the experts can give an answer on what if any finish these items originally had when first made. Again, I would like to complement your friend for the great work that he has done.

Regards,
Robert

Hello Robert,

I am with you, I have seen protective coatings only by keris sheaths and by some few other weapons but never by this weak wood scabbards from Philippine kris. This weak wood is the reason why they are so many times are broken IMHO. Like you can see in last pic. from post # 16 and post # 22 there was done also a bigger repair at the crosspiece and the scabbard was heavily cratched (see pictures from the seller in up) so we decided to remove the old coating from grease and give it a finish with shellac. Not original anymore but kept the original scabbard in a way which will be save also for a time after my ownership. In my eyes a acceptable trade-off.
There will have been originally rattan bands to keep the two halfs of the scabbard in place.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 23rd December 2012, 05:53 AM

Well, sometimes I have seen a type of lacquer on some Moro/Philippine scabbards. Now the question is was that original or added later?

Other times it is difficult to tell from glossy patina and a thin veneer of lacquer.

Sajen · 23rd December 2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Well, sometimes I have seen a type of lacquer on some Moro/Philippine scabbards. Now the question is was that original or added later?

Other times it is difficult to tell from glossy patina and a thin veneer of lacquer.

Do you think it's overdone? Ask also all others for opinion.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 23rd December 2012, 08:00 PM

Not really. Does not seem thick on the pictures. Besides we are custodians of fuse works of art and history. We need to preserve them for future generations.

Sajen · 24th December 2012, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Not really. Does not seem thick on the pictures. Besides we are custodians of fuse works of art and history. We need to preserve them for future generations.

Exactly my point of view. The only other option would have been to keep the scabbard as I have get it.

Regards,

Detlef

21st October 2012, 11:47 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Maranao kris? Just win this kris by epray, the scabbard need some restore but I think that this can be fixed. The engravings are inlayed with brass like the seller stated. I think that it is a Maranao fighting kris from around 1900. All comments are very welcome. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

23rd October 2012, 11:23 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Thank you all for your inputs. Agree with you that my dating was a little bit to early. The point Rick stated about the planar leading edge of the sosoran area is a very good one. Let us look what the blade has in summary: a most possible seperate gangya and a well made fret work but with planar leading edge. I have posted in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15589 a kris with a very similar fret work but with rounded edge which was dated from Kai after 1910. So is my uneducated guess that the one in question could be 1920 until 1930. The very good patina from the handle let guess that this keris was many times handled and I have problems to belive that this would have been feasible by a kris from the time post WWII (again my uneducated guess). The most I have seen here from this time frame seems in my eyes pure dress/show/status kris. Thank you again for this interesting discussion and I would like when it not ended here since I think we all can learn by this. Best regards, Detlef Attached Images

17th November 2012, 02:55 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Have received this kris as well. The gangya is indeed seperate and like supposed is the blade very well worked. Unfortunately is the brass inlay detached at one place. The kris is now by my friend for restore the scabbard. Soon as I have it back I will post pictures. Attached Images

21st December 2012, 01:06 AM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here pictures from the restored scabbard. Attached Images

21st December 2012, 01:49 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Thank you David. Will give the compliment to my friend who have done indeed a great job. Ariel, the scabbard was more demaged as I have thought before. Special in down from the scabbard where the two halfs meet was some wood missing. The wood is very weak and original from "white" colour. So after all wood work it was stained to the dark colour and get some coats from shellac. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

22nd October 2012, 04:58 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	It is hard to distinguish between Maranao and Maguindanao. I would lean toward Maguindanao due to the way the "elephant" profile is made.

22nd October 2012, 08:52 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef, I also believe this blade is Maguindanao (also the hilt suits fine). Actually, I see no hints that speak for Maranao? Does the kris really have a seperate gangya? Considering the scroll work, I'd lean towards a somewhat later date. BTW, etched silver can look pretty much like brass. IMHO this is likely brass though; checking with a gentle polish wouldn't hurt, I guess. Regards, Kai

22nd October 2012, 04:20 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Kai, thank's for comment. Until now I haven't it in my hands so I can't say for sure if it has a seperate gangya. But have a look to the last but one picture; I think it's seperate. When the "brass" is silver would be nice, we will know for sure when I have received it. Thank you for confirming the statement from Jose that it is a Maguindanao blade and your dating. Regards, Detlef

22nd October 2012, 11:59 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Actually I think I do see a separate ganga and not one of those later engraved ones. Kai I was thinking the same thing - the "brass" could in fact be tarnished silver, which would be easier to inlay than brass (I have inlaid both).

23rd October 2012, 12:18 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	There is something quite 20th century about the detail work; kembang kacang etc . I think this is early post WWII .

23rd October 2012, 02:44 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I have seen early post WWII and the workmanship on this is superior to that date. I would guess at early 20c. I would change my mind if the ganga is not separate.

23rd October 2012, 03:39 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It's just the lack of a transitional curve from the leading edge of the Sorsoran area through to the side of the blade that bothers me . Its aspect is almost planar in nature; something I would not expect to see in a pre-WWII blade . There must also be good examples extant of post WWII blades too .

24th October 2012, 02:44 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Never thought about the planar issue..........hmm..........will have to look into that.........

24th October 2012, 06:40 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Thank you Kai for confirming my guess. Soon as I have received the kris I will write here if the gangya is seperate. Regards, Detlef

24th October 2012, 08:16 PM	#14
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	You're welcome, Detlef! Please also post pics after staining the blade! Regards, Kai

17th November 2012, 06:49 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	2 things: First - I am glad the the ganga is separate, a good sign. Second - I have discovered that when it comes to inlay, often the whole length of the inlay would often have to be replaced as well as the grooves re-engraved. I have had to do this in the past when you would think that only a section is all that is needed - wrong!

21st December 2012, 01:16 AM	#20
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Nice job!

21st December 2012, 04:34 AM	#21
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What did you use on the scabbard to make it so beautiful?

21st December 2012, 05:19 PM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Impressive work. Did not know it was even worse than expected.

22nd December 2012, 03:51 AM	#25
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, Very nice repair and restoration work your friend did on the scabbard. One question though, did the scabbards on any of the older pre WWII Philippine pieces have any finish on the wooden parts originally? None of the ones that I have ever been able to be lucky enough to have come with the sharp pointy items I have collected have had no protective coating on them other than ones that have had both the scabbard and the blade coated in grease or have been completely coated in lacquer by a previous collector as a protective measure. The only thing that I have ever done on the wood is to do a hand rubbed wax finish. Hopefully one of the experts can give an answer on what if any finish these items originally had when first made. Again, I would like to complement your friend for the great work that he has done. Regards, Robert

23rd December 2012, 05:53 AM	#27
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Well, sometimes I have seen a type of lacquer on some Moro/Philippine scabbards. Now the question is was that original or added later? Other times it is difficult to tell from glossy patina and a thin veneer of lacquer.

23rd December 2012, 08:00 PM	#29
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Not really. Does not seem thick on the pictures. Besides we are custodians of fuse works of art and history. We need to preserve them for future generations.