Persian Qajar Dagger

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

with .. one stone, I'll shoot two birds
the perpetual misunderstanding (joke) between "froggy" and "roast-beef"
about "criticize" there are two kinds; negatives and positives
it was the last one, was going my comments
we have two languages, very close to each one, but some terms very similar leave the place to some light different interpretation

don't speak too much about ear-rings, when you said nice,
the word is weak, but if my wife saw that ...
it's me at this moment I will be a weak man

concerning, second post ...


yes it's a "Qajar" khanjar, but due to miss care, his condition is very poor, oxidation and pitting due to rust, not to his age
a "noble" patina, as far as I know, must be "green" or "brown"

I don't denied that there is a very strong influence between, Persia and India
I have an other Persian khanjar, same era, with a oval/diamond section blade, not "johar", and not Indian,
but it's need a serious refurbishing, that means this type of blade wasn't rare (pic attached)

you mean by that, an edged weapon, without rust (please don't talk about patina, you know my POV ), and plenty dirt, must be a modern production ... interesting ...
but I don't share the concept


the dating for the Qajar Dynasty era, it's the most simple, because recent, and very well documented
1st Qajar - 1786 - juin 1797 : Agha Mohammad Shah
last Qajar - 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
nothing before, and nothing after

by the way, I think to have identified the kind of "johar" with the book "Swords & Armour" "weapons of the Islamic World",
and I'm not to much convince that the wootz, of my blade it's the same, that you show

I love that kind of exchange,
very good opportunity to argument, in function of our reciprocal knowledge, and sensibility, thank you Gene

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

Patination, wear, signs of age....
"Patina" is often defined as verdigris or oxidisation, but it can just as easily be the accrued hand grease, dust and wax polish on a piece of wood furniture or the natural contrast of darkening and polishing that decades of handling and cleaning creates on a piece of steel that has never been left to rust or been mistreated.

The reason I don't use terms like 'johar' is that not every person uses them in the same context. Like 'damascus' or 'watered' which is why I asked for confirmation of what you meant.
I find these terms most confusing
So I always try to use the terms that are open to the 'least' interpretation:
Wootz, Mechanical wootz, Laminated steel, pattern welded etc.

So you see your blade as wootz and not pattern welded?

Lets see what others think. As always, I'm as happy to be wrong as I am to be right! As long as my knowledge is increased

[Battara]

My understanding of patina is the oxidation on the surface that is not corrosive.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

My understanding of patina is the oxidation on the surface that is not corrosive.

YES SIR
otherwise, the other things are;
stains, rust, dirt, ultimately ... shit ...

here a serial of pics, it's a "shula" dagger from Morocco
not a great value, but for me not a reason to don't respected it

at least, I like it more after be refurbished;
- some linseed oil for the handle, to feed the ram's horn
- polishing copper
- some wax to feed the leather of the scabbard
- with very fine steel wool pad, cleaning of the blade, then treatment with "Renaissance" products to prevent the corrosion

I don't feel that I'm destroying the marks of the past, it's just to restore a dignity, it would NEVER ... have lost

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

I have seen this on ebay and wanted to bid on it. The craftmanship is excellent and Dom is right, it did have patina in the auction photos if I remember correctly.

Now the decoration is defintly good and the blade appears to be well made certainly not like the new indian stuff but the shape of the whole piece is unlike any Qajar piece I have seen..

It is possible that its Indian work but real work, not touristy. One thing for sure Indians borrow art from Persians so its all possible.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I have seen this on ebay and wanted to bid on it. The craftmanship is excellent and Dom is right, it did have patina in the auction photos if I remember correctly.

Now the decoration is defintly good and the blade appears to be well made certainly not like the new indian stuff but the shape of the whole piece is unlike any Qajar piece I have seen..

It is possible that its Indian work but real work, not touristy. One thing for sure Indians borrow art from Persians so its all possible.

Hi Lotfy

I absolutely agree that the craftsmanship on the chiseled decoration of the scabbard and hilt is 1st rate.
BUT! Stylistically it reminds me of the work of the Indian silversmiths of Calcutta.
It just doesn't look like Qajar work to me at all.

I've had a look at the original eBay auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ISLA...item20cdd92501
The 'patina' such as it was, still looks 'new' to me.
Even in a few decades, bare steel will darken, but I don't see any evidence of that on this dagger.
Even on the blade I can't see any indications of repeated drawing and withdrawing having left 'polished' lines on the grey etched surface.
In my humble experience that configuration of suspension loops would be more indicative of modern Arabian Jambiya rather than Qajar Khanjar.
It doesn't look to follow the usual method of being 'tucked into' a sash or belt hung from, as we'd usually see. It looks like it should be tied over a belt like some Jambiya.

Here is an example of a chiseled steel dagger of the Qajar style showing the type of style and patina that I'd expect.
Someone please come and show me another example of a dagger of the type that Dom has with concrete provenance?

[Dom]

Hi
Thanks Lotfi to have give yours comments, and appreciations

strange as the others are very silence ??

also ... a small up, for a translation of a text in "farsi" Thanks

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

So you see your blade as wootz and not pattern welded?

Lets see what others think. As always, I'm as happy to be wrong as I am to be right! As long as my knowledge is increased

as per as the doc with me ... yes
"Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"

but I'm agree with you, lets the other "fox" express their opinions

and I hope so that some distinguished "Farsi" translator will have a look on it

because as far as it's not in Arabic, it's not a religious mention,

if it's a poem, I'll be frustrated, may be an indication about his owner,
I doubt about that unfortunately, but nearly X-Mas ... might be a miracle ??

all the best

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

as per as the doc with me ... yes
"Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"

but I'm agree with you, lets the other "fox" express their opinions

and I hope so that some distinguished "Farsi" translator will have a look on it

because as far as it's not in Arabic, it's not a religious mention,

if it's a poem, I'll be frustrated, may be an indication about his owner,
I doubt about that unfortunately, but nearly X-Mas ... might be a miracle ??

all the best

à +

Dom

LOL! "tis the season"!

Happy Xmas mate.