Owners of takouba and kaskara - a little help needed!

Martin Lubojacky · 13th December 2012, 07:00 PM

Hi Iain,
crescents on this sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16298 does not face each other, but I would say they were "stamped in Europe" and also the blade is both well flexible, with nice thick profile and I would say hard, too.....

Iain · 14th December 2012, 08:51 AM

Hi Martin,

Thanks for linking your example. I agree the blade looks very high quality.

I have started to suspect almost all half moon marks I encounter though. It seems that a blade being European is no indication the stamps are.

I have seen several examples now of thuluth blades where the half moon stamps are well struck, the blades are European, but the half moons are applied after the thuluth. Unless makers like Clauberg were doing the thuluth themselves the only conclusion is that within Africa, before resale, the blades were being stamped. Even if they were European blades.

That is why I am trying to find more examples of verified European swords (not just the blades) where the two moons have the faces pointing outwards.

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2012, 03:34 AM

Hi Iain,
While I cannot offer any substantiating evidence, I feel compelled to think of these thuluth covered weapons coming from the Sennar regions with many of them entering there from Red Sea trade. It seems quite likely that as they entered the trade routes westward, these dukari imbuements were probably stamped in over the thuluth in the key locations and configurations by armourers in the route posts.
As you note, the presence of these moons does not signify a European blade, in fact as I once noted, these paired moons seem quite unusual on European blades, though they are certainly known in some cases.

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 15th December 2012, 12:32 PM

Hi Jim,

Yes, the moons do seem unusual in a European consequence and it is pretty clear now that a European blade unfortunately is not verification for the markings it might bear.

Doesn't make things any easier, that's for sure!

Martin Lubojacky · 15th December 2012, 02:28 PM

Hi all,
I was of the opinion (I think I red it somewere, I am not sure if not here some years ago ?), that collectors differ between "original half moons" (of more "18/19th century European style face engravings", i.e.more detailed, with "cucumber noses", with something like hints of eyebrows) and their copies made locally (more schematic) ?
Regards,
Martin

Iain · 15th December 2012, 03:22 PM

Hi Martin,

Yes that is the generally held idea - the more detailed and well struck the marks the more likely to be European originals. I would have to say the marks on your sword are exceptionally well made.

One of the things I look for is if the marks are of an even depth - struck when the metal is hot. A lot of the native marks are unevenly struck due to being done "cold".

An interesting thing, is that of the triple fuller blades that appear to be European that I have seen, most have not had half moon marks at all! But rather nothing, or astral engravings (moon, stars, etc).

Here's the link to the one German sword I mentioned before.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=28

13th December 2012, 07:00 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Hi Iain, crescents on this sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16298 does not face each other, but I would say they were "stamped in Europe" and also the blade is both well flexible, with nice thick profile and I would say hard, too.....

14th December 2012, 08:51 AM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Martin, Thanks for linking your example. I agree the blade looks very high quality. I have started to suspect almost all half moon marks I encounter though. It seems that a blade being European is no indication the stamps are. I have seen several examples now of thuluth blades where the half moon stamps are well struck, the blades are European, but the half moons are applied after the thuluth. Unless makers like Clauberg were doing the thuluth themselves the only conclusion is that within Africa, before resale, the blades were being stamped. Even if they were European blades. That is why I am trying to find more examples of verified European swords (not just the blades) where the two moons have the faces pointing outwards.

15th December 2012, 03:34 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Iain, While I cannot offer any substantiating evidence, I feel compelled to think of these thuluth covered weapons coming from the Sennar regions with many of them entering there from Red Sea trade. It seems quite likely that as they entered the trade routes westward, these dukari imbuements were probably stamped in over the thuluth in the key locations and configurations by armourers in the route posts. As you note, the presence of these moons does not signify a European blade, in fact as I once noted, these paired moons seem quite unusual on European blades, though they are certainly known in some cases. All the best, Jim

15th December 2012, 12:32 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Jim, Yes, the moons do seem unusual in a European consequence and it is pretty clear now that a European blade unfortunately is not verification for the markings it might bear. Doesn't make things any easier, that's for sure!

15th December 2012, 02:28 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Hi all, I was of the opinion (I think I red it somewere, I am not sure if not here some years ago ?), that collectors differ between "original half moons" (of more "18/19th century European style face engravings", i.e.more detailed, with "cucumber noses", with something like hints of eyebrows) and their copies made locally (more schematic) ? Regards, Martin

15th December 2012, 03:22 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Martin, Yes that is the generally held idea - the more detailed and well struck the marks the more likely to be European originals. I would have to say the marks on your sword are exceptionally well made. One of the things I look for is if the marks are of an even depth - struck when the metal is hot. A lot of the native marks are unevenly struck due to being done "cold". An interesting thing, is that of the triple fuller blades that appear to be European that I have seen, most have not had half moon marks at all! But rather nothing, or astral engravings (moon, stars, etc). Here's the link to the one German sword I mentioned before. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=28