Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Talking of (quoting you) a bit of stretch; i would consider such fusion thesis also a long shot. Would rather bet in one "one or another" influence.
And by the way, i wouldn’t include the jineta in this championship. This wouldn’t be the origin for the (false) quillons on the Kastane. Such sword already had its characteristic form when the Nasrid brought it to Al Andaluz by the XIII century; their fallen “arriaces” were born like that and would be nothing but a decor, or in the least with no practical use . Neither could we call it Portuguese or Spanish, although it became later christianized, with its production ceasing in Toledo by the XV century. Whether its consequent variants were the reason for the appearing of the actual (finger) defense quillons is another issue; but the sword that was brought by (Portuguese) navigators to Ceylon had actual functional ample curved quillons, those to protect fingers holding the ricasso which, according to some opinion sources, were ‘shrunk’ by Cingalese smiths in their sword (Kastane) models, as not intended for their fencing (handling) techniques.
But don't take my perspective in such worthwhile position; i am just trying to help maintaining the (hypo)thesis contradictory .


.

Salaams Fernando. Your picture is an excellent illustration of what I feel is, in part, the origin of species concerning the design of the Kastane. The Quillons however on the Kastane are more a take off from the ritual Tibettan item. The hilt is purely Buddhist. Thus the blended style.

I don't believe they are actually Quillons but in the likeness of Quillons, though, actually from the Vajra item; #115.

There is simply no evidence of a pre Portuguese Kastane in Sri Lanka..What appears as highly probable is Portuguese battleships rolling up with artisans and weapon masters on board and a liaison between the Sri Lankan Royal Households combining both weapons into the Kastane; fusing two styles viz;

The Buddhist influenced Makara hilt, Knuckle Guard, Guard and "Quillons" (so called) and the Portuguese sword style thus became blended.

We know that liaison took place in weapons workshops because your own picture earlier of the Makara or Naga on the locks of the long guns; #66 second photo.

In terms of other Eastern influence; No evidence presents itself in terms of Japanese/Portuguese influence. The weapons are completely different.

In terms of wording; The two closest words relating to Kastane are Castao and Castas. Castao meaning stick is surely a non starter since how can a precious stone encrusted, hugely rare, gilded and silver engraved masterpiece be simply called a stick? Logic seems to point to the richer more understandable conclusion that Castas (master crafted) is more likely. I have illustrated the link between Caste and Guilds of Master craftsmen previously.

My hypothesis stands, though, broadly enhanced with your superb photo.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; For excellent pictures of Kastane see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4&page=1&pp=30

[fernando]

Olá Ibrahiim,
You will pardon my imaturity in these things, as i am not sure if i understand the way you wish to put things.
... even though i dare dropping a couple notes:

Castão is not a crude stick but the knob/handle of a stick when its ornamentation is implicit. One used to see them "encastoados" with ivory, gems and rare metals out there. The word is not portuguese (latin), but of German originated, later transited to old french, from where it was adopted to portuguese language.

I am a bit puzzled in that you seem to rapidly put in the same basket the Islamic concept of the Gineta with the Budhist pattern that you pretend to be the provenance of the Kastane false quillons.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Olá Ibrahiim,
You will pardon my imaturity in these things, as i am not sure if i understand the way you wish to put things.
... even though i dare dropping a couple notes:

Castão is not a crude stick but the knob/handle of a stick when its ornamentation is implicit. One used to see them "encastoados" with ivory, gems and rare metals out there. The word is not portuguese (latin), but of German originated, later transited to old french, from where it was adopted to portuguese language.

I am a bit puzzled in that you seem to rapidly put in the same basket the Islamic concept of the Gineta with the Budhist pattern that you pretend to be the provenance of the Kastane false quillons.

Salaams Fernando~ Very interesting. Thank you for your clarification on the stick word Castão which I thought just meant "stick" Now with that information it certainly poses the question was the original word from that and not Castas? What we do know is that the Portuguese word Castas was the word applied to the Indian Caste system and that was the line up I applied etc etc... however, looking for the word root is as you well know a hazard worth avoiding...What is important is the fact that no evidence appears pre Portuguese involvement in Sri Lanka of the Kastane.

Your second point about Islamic and Buddhist mixed style of hilt is equally evasive of a straight answer since an equally styled type of sword coming down from the Indian style line could also be responsible for the essence of the decorative layout... take for example the Tulvar with quillons and knuckleguard...A clever designer using the Buddhist style could come up with a Kastane design from that...Equally a re-hash of the Zanzibari Nimcha with Buddhist decorated hilt would produce a Kastane just as easily.

However, that is not the point. Focus is upon the Portuguese/Sri Lankan form and the time of the Portuguese. It was they who named the weapon and since no Kastane is evidenced prior to their arrival logic points to their involvement and because of the Buddhist influence the inclusion of the Buddhist Iconic hilt is a clear indicator of Sri Lankan cooperation.

Naturally there is another supposition that the Sri Lankans designed it with no cooperation with anyone but coincidentally at the same time as the arrival of the Portuguese... and that the word Kastane is in fact a Sri Lankan word or concoction that we have no evidence of... lost in time...or that once it was produced it suddenly adopted a Portuguese name. Hardly a researchable topic.

Eyesight also tells us that the hilt and scabbard design are Sri Lankan although the timeline indicates cooperation in weapons design with the Portuguese since they were also making guns together..

Of course you may be quite right about the "Quillon" situation being perhaps totally nothing to do with the Ginetta. In fact, my previous thoughts were that they weren't quillons but simply a reflection of the deities on the Vajra item, therefor, I don't disagree but it alters not my hypothesis neither does the too-and-fro with the "whats in a word conundrum" ~ though it is interesting.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note~ Reproduced here is my carefully worded Hypothesis for perusal.

"The Kastane, named so by the Portuguese, was introduced designed and built with Portuguese collaboration in Royal workshops in Sri Lanka in the late 1500/early1600s... and variously afterwards for many centuries. The Portuguese part of the design may have introduced the basic hilt shape and *cutlass fashion popular in Portuguese/Spanish Jinetta forms whilst the main theme came from the Sri Lankan design taken from Buddhist structures in history encompassing Makara, supporting Deities and Buddhist ritual-item related Quillons" (as at #115).

*I will stick with that for now and add that the reason for the inclusion of the words cutlass fashion is to net in the similar curved short Nimcha style (and assuming a cutlass action of a short ships sword).

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

Been pursuing a more sound foundation for the origin of the name Kasthana based on a term used in old Sinhala; that may provide a far more solid basis than any that had been pursued so far and rule out Portuguese origins to the word.

The term “Asthana” has been documented used on many occasions during the 16th and 17th century texts as a “suffix” to refer to princes. (Example: Princes of King Vimaladharmasuriya I- Rajasuriya Asthana, Udumale Asthana, Kumarasinghe Asthana and Vijayapala Asthana in addition it is also used with Dharmapala Asthana, Dev-Rajasinghe Asthana and Jayaweera Asthana etc.)


There are two Sinhala weapons with the suffix “Asthana” -the Kasthana and the Patisthana; both of these weapons differ from the mainstream arms in the prolific ornamentation that accompany them. While the Kasthana was a weapon of honor presented and used by chiefs and warriors who excelled in battle, the Patisthana was a spear used primarily as a palace guard arm. The records indicate presentations of both as honorifics to individuals by the King.

In Sinhala a sword is referred to as a Asi, Asipath, Kaduwa, Kagga or Kaga. hence a “Princely sword” could become a “Kaga-Asthana” > “Ka-asthana” > “Kasthana”, equally spears known as Ati or Pati could become a “Princely spear” by terming “Pati-Asthana” > “Patisthana”

Accordingly I think it is very likely that the Kasthana was so termed with the meaning of “Prince of Swords” or “Royal Sword”

This will confirm the origin of the Kasthana as a purely Sinhala arm and with a far more solid basis for the origin of the name than any that had been discussed previously. and also provide a strong counter to any Portuguese origin claims.


Attaching an image in celebration- A Kandyan chief with a Kasthana Sword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

Been pursuing a more sound foundation for the origin of the name Kasthana based on a term used in old Sinhala; that may provide a far more solid basis than any that had been pursued so far and rule out Portuguese origins to the word.

The term “Asthana” has been documented used on many occasions during the 16th and 17th century texts as a “suffix” to refer to princes. (Example: Princes of King Vimaladharmasuriya I- Rajasuriya Asthana, Udumale Asthana, Kumarasinghe Asthana and Vijayapala Asthana in addition it is also used with Dharmapala Asthana, Dev-Rajasinghe Asthana and Jayaweera Asthana etc.)


There are two Sinhala weapons with the suffix “Asthana” -the Kasthana and the Patisthana; both of these weapons differ from the mainstream arms in the prolific ornamentation that accompany them. While the Kasthana was a weapon of honor presented and used by chiefs and warriors who excelled in battle, the Patisthana was a spear used primarily as a palace guard arm. The records indicate presentations of both as honorifics to individuals by the King.

In Sinhala a sword is referred to as a Asi, Asipath, Kaduwa, Kagga or Kaga. hence a “Princely sword” could become a “Kaga-Asthana” > “Ka-asthana” > “Kasthana”, equally spears known as Ati or Pati could become a “Princely spear” by terming “Pati-Asthana” > “Patisthana”

Accordingly I think it is very likely that the Kasthana was so termed with the meaning of “Prince of Swords” or “Royal Sword”

This will confirm the origin of the Kasthana as a purely Sinhala arm and with a far more solid basis for the origin of the name than any that had been discussed previously. and also provide a strong counter to any Portuguese origin claims.


Attaching an image in celebration- A Kandyan chief with a Kasthana Sword

Salaams Weerakkody.

Your painting is recent and not taken from an historic reference dating before the Portuguese involvement.. Am I correct in assuming this?

Without wishing to get into a discussion long and difficult (impossible) about "whats in a word" I would caution that there is little evidence either way. I cannot see much of a tie up with your word association except that it is interesting.

Where I suggest a potential area of research which you may be better placed to identify is in the Martial Arts pre Portuguese weaponry style of swords used. The fact is that we are unable to identify an early enough Kastane (Kasthane) which would prove beyond doubt its earlier position.

The 16/17th century is too late....because;

In 1505 Don Lourenço de Almeida, son of the Portuguese viceroy in India, was sailing off the southwestern coast of Sri Lanka looking for Moorish ships to attack when stormy weather forced his fleet to dock at Galle. The rest as we say is history.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[T. Koch]

Prasanna, I just have to give you my compliments for the Kandyan chief! One of the best faces you've done IMO and those eyes are just so intense that he almost scares me through the screen.

...btw. if Sinhala chicks are as hot today as they are in your paintings, I hope to get an invitation from you sometime.


Sorry to interrupt guys, I'll go back to my seat now and keep learning. Please keep the discussion going!


All the best, - Thor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Weerakkody.

Your painting is recent and not taken from an historic reference dating before the Portuguese involvement.. Am I correct in assuming this?

Without wishing to get into a discussion long and difficult (impossible) about "whats in a word" I would caution that there is little evidence either way. I cannot see much of a tie up with your word association except that it is interesting.

Where I suggest a potential area of research which you may be better placed to identify is in the Martial Arts pre Portuguese weaponry style of swords used. The fact is that we are unable to identify an early enough Kastane (Kasthane) which would prove beyond doubt its earlier position.

The 16/17th century is too late....because;

In 1505 Don Lourenço de Almeida, son of the Portuguese viceroy in India, was sailing off the southwestern coast of Sri Lanka looking for Moorish ships to attack when stormy weather forced his fleet to dock at Galle. The rest as we say is history.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Weerakkody ~ I have looked again at your explanation of the Kasthane word origins and I have to say it is a well thought out proposition ...what you indicate could be fact .. but unfortunately it doesn't change the equation based ion the first appearance of the Portuguese in Sri Lanka.(1505AD) The point is that even if the word Kasthane is pure Sri Lankan they(the Portuguese ) were already there ... and in the case of the word being Sri Lankan the design and manufacture may not have been, moreover, cooperation in both were likely carried out in Royal workshops, thus, the weapon itself may be a hybrid with aspects of both designers (Sri Lankan and Portuguese) including Buddhist influence etc.

Thank you for the hard work and insight on the linguistic angles.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

Thanks Thor for Complement, About the girls; sadly they don’t dress the same way now…

Balooshi, I have run the concept of Kasthana origin being the word Asthana with a few Sri Lankan historians and linguists and there is agreement to the high probability of the root of the word.

The design origin of Kasthana is also indigenous; and very likely pre-dated Portuguese arrival; though some elements of the Kasthana in its final form may have had possible Portuguese influence. I am still working on this- need more work…