Kaskara - Translation?

regihis · 8th December 2012, 11:35 PM

I have two daggers of Sudan
One of 1123 = 1711
In one these daggers the translation have references to Umm Durman = Omdurman. Omdurman founded by the Mahdi? I'snt a ancient city? How its possible?

Can my two daggers are the pair missing his sword Mefidk?

Iain · 9th December 2012, 10:27 AM

Hi Chris and Regihis,

On dates and blade inscriptions - I think these are probably references to saints or other figures, perhaps some events. However Regihis, I wouldn't take the date and the mention of the city to necessarily go together. Certainly I wouldn't interpret it as a date for the manufacture of your daggers.

On your second sword Chris - very interesting one! Reminds me a bit of this one:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=kaskara

Returning to the thuluth theme...

There are a few interesting points I've been thinking about that I thought were worth laying out.

1. In summary of what we've already discussed, it seems that there are two distinct styles of thuluth applied and that distinction seems to be in line with blade quality. It was applied to trade blades like the triple fuller Clauberg blade Wolf has kindly shared in the past. Here is another Clauberg blade from Stephen, a single fuller pattern this time.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8269

2. The stage when thuluth was applied interests me - on triple fuller blades with it, I have now seen several examples where the half moon stamps were applied AFTER the etching. This indicates to me the etching was not done in the same location as the mounts as I cannot think of another reason why the stamps would be applied after, partly obscuring some of the script.

3. Tribal attribution, I am aware of one period photo showing a good thuluth blade - it has an attribution in French to the man being from the Gâlièh tribe - the photo looks a bit staged. I cannot find anything about this group, even what part of Sudan they were/are from? Image is attached to this post.

4. If the thuluth style originated in Sennar, it is interesting to note that the forces of the Mahdi took some time and effort to capture the town. From reading Father Joseph Orthwalder's memoirs of his 10 years as a prisoner of the Mahdia we learn the Sennar was more or less ruined after the garrison fell to the Mahdist forces. As Orthwalder puts it:

"All that is left of Sennar are a few mud and sand heaps, and its very name has ceased to exist, although early in this century it was better known even than Dongola or Kordofan."

This allows for the interesting idea that perhaps the craftsmen who would have lived in Sennar then migrated to Omdurman?

I am digging through more period accounts as time allows.

All the best,

Iain

Mefidk · 10th December 2012, 04:56 AM

Regihis - it does indeed seem that our examples came from some very similar source, or at least the text that was copied did.

If your's mentions Omdurman, and mine a tomb then it does seem more likely that we have some evidence for post-Mahdi sourvenirs. So perhaps a translation will finally be able to finish this discussion - e.g. if it turns out that there is some mention of the Mahdi's tomb at Omdurman then we can be certain that these were made at the very earliest at at the very end of the 19C.

Perhaps Dom or some other learned folk with respect to Arabic could help but as far as I understand it the text near the hilt is written in an old but more modern script than that we are referring to as thuluth. Maybe we can get a better or more complete translation of these easier to read sections?

Iain - yes you are quite right about the possible Ethiopian connection. Great minds think alike

- the sword you linked to was the reason I bought this one - thinking perhaps it was similar. Not easy to discern letters though so I'm not really sure yet what it is. The blade does seem to have had a long and active life though judging by the amount of material removed for sharpening.

Chris

Dom · 15th December 2012, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mefidk

Perhaps Dom or some other learned folk with respect to Arabic could help

Hi Chris

after some difficulties ... HERE WE ARE

KHARTOUM SANA 1123 H. either KHARTOUM YEAR 1711 A.C.

DOREBA B OMDOUMAN either MADE IN OMDOURMAN

no mention about "tomb" ... "shrine" ... sorry

I don't guess that the date is related with fabrication
- the date has to be linked with Khartoum
- Omdouran linked with the place of blacksmith
no more ... at least, it's my point of view

very nice "épée"

à +

Dom

Mefidk · 16th December 2012, 09:38 AM

Many thanks Dom, this is really a big help

Still some mysteries to solve here w.r.t. Khartoum and that date (as far as I know it did not exist in 1711), but this does certainly seem to lend weight to the idea of solider's momentos produced after Omdurman. At least I cannot think of any good reason so many of these blades would have been produced in Omdurman prior to the British victory there. If produced under the Mahdi for some commemorative reason I guess they would at the very least mention him. So post 1898, which also fits with the fact that so far no-one has yet produced a provenanced example prior to 1900 (unless someone out there knows better that is). This also explains why there are so many of these around (not just kaskaras but other blades with the same or very similar writing).

Pity about the tomb, just goes to show that all translations (except for Dom's of course), should be taken with a pince of salt

laEspadaAncha · 7th January 2013, 04:47 AM

Hi Chris,

I have one of these as well, posted in this thread.

I'm not sure what or who it is in reference to, or if it can even help in your efforts, but a friend translated the handle to read, "Lion of Justice."

Cheers,

Chris

Mefidk · 11th January 2013, 06:42 AM

Thanks for the link Chris. It does seem to me that we are coming to land firmly on the side of these being made as soldier's souvenirs in the very early part of the 20th C.
I think that the 'Made in Omdurman' translation from Dom pretty well clinches it. In your case it seems the message was different, and perhaps you have a higher end, or at least different producer/area.
I can't see it clearly from the pictures, but I think that the thuluth on your blade is closer to the form seen on the fighting blades, and it does not seem to have the chain motif associated with most of the flat thuluth kaskaras. Brass guard is the same though. Looks like a flat non-functional blade though, made in the same way as the other examples with no peg to hold the blade in. I wonder if we have any more variants of these out there?

9th December 2012, 10:27 AM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Chris and Regihis, On dates and blade inscriptions - I think these are probably references to saints or other figures, perhaps some events. However Regihis, I wouldn't take the date and the mention of the city to necessarily go together. Certainly I wouldn't interpret it as a date for the manufacture of your daggers. On your second sword Chris - very interesting one! Reminds me a bit of this one: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=kaskara Returning to the thuluth theme... There are a few interesting points I've been thinking about that I thought were worth laying out. 1. In summary of what we've already discussed, it seems that there are two distinct styles of thuluth applied and that distinction seems to be in line with blade quality. It was applied to trade blades like the triple fuller Clauberg blade Wolf has kindly shared in the past. Here is another Clauberg blade from Stephen, a single fuller pattern this time. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8269 2. The stage when thuluth was applied interests me - on triple fuller blades with it, I have now seen several examples where the half moon stamps were applied AFTER the etching. This indicates to me the etching was not done in the same location as the mounts as I cannot think of another reason why the stamps would be applied after, partly obscuring some of the script. 3. Tribal attribution, I am aware of one period photo showing a good thuluth blade - it has an attribution in French to the man being from the Gâlièh tribe - the photo looks a bit staged. I cannot find anything about this group, even what part of Sudan they were/are from? Image is attached to this post. 4. If the thuluth style originated in Sennar, it is interesting to note that the forces of the Mahdi took some time and effort to capture the town. From reading Father Joseph Orthwalder's memoirs of his 10 years as a prisoner of the Mahdia we learn the Sennar was more or less ruined after the garrison fell to the Mahdist forces. As Orthwalder puts it: "All that is left of Sennar are a few mud and sand heaps, and its very name has ceased to exist, although early in this century it was better known even than Dongola or Kordofan." This allows for the interesting idea that perhaps the craftsmen who would have lived in Sennar then migrated to Omdurman? I am digging through more period accounts as time allows. All the best, Iain Attached Images

8th December 2012, 11:35 PM	#1
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	I have two daggers of Sudan One of 1123 = 1711 In one these daggers the translation have references to Umm Durman = Omdurman. Omdurman founded by the Mahdi? I'snt a ancient city? How its possible? Can my two daggers are the pair missing his sword Mefidk?

10th December 2012, 04:56 AM	#3
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Regihis - it does indeed seem that our examples came from some very similar source, or at least the text that was copied did. If your's mentions Omdurman, and mine a tomb then it does seem more likely that we have some evidence for post-Mahdi sourvenirs. So perhaps a translation will finally be able to finish this discussion - e.g. if it turns out that there is some mention of the Mahdi's tomb at Omdurman then we can be certain that these were made at the very earliest at at the very end of the 19C. Perhaps Dom or some other learned folk with respect to Arabic could help but as far as I understand it the text near the hilt is written in an old but more modern script than that we are referring to as thuluth. Maybe we can get a better or more complete translation of these easier to read sections? Iain - yes you are quite right about the possible Ethiopian connection. Great minds think alike - the sword you linked to was the reason I bought this one - thinking perhaps it was similar. Not easy to discern letters though so I'm not really sure yet what it is. The blade does seem to have had a long and active life though judging by the amount of material removed for sharpening. Chris

16th December 2012, 09:38 AM	#5
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Many thanks Dom, this is really a big help Still some mysteries to solve here w.r.t. Khartoum and that date (as far as I know it did not exist in 1711), but this does certainly seem to lend weight to the idea of solider's momentos produced after Omdurman. At least I cannot think of any good reason so many of these blades would have been produced in Omdurman prior to the British victory there. If produced under the Mahdi for some commemorative reason I guess they would at the very least mention him. So post 1898, which also fits with the fact that so far no-one has yet produced a provenanced example prior to 1900 (unless someone out there knows better that is). This also explains why there are so many of these around (not just kaskaras but other blades with the same or very similar writing). Pity about the tomb, just goes to show that all translations (except for Dom's of course), should be taken with a pince of salt

7th January 2013, 04:47 AM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Chris, I have one of these as well, posted in this thread. I'm not sure what or who it is in reference to, or if it can even help in your efforts, but a friend translated the handle to read, "Lion of Justice." Cheers, Chris

11th January 2013, 06:42 AM	#7
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thanks for the link Chris. It does seem to me that we are coming to land firmly on the side of these being made as soldier's souvenirs in the very early part of the 20th C. I think that the 'Made in Omdurman' translation from Dom pretty well clinches it. In your case it seems the message was different, and perhaps you have a higher end, or at least different producer/area. I can't see it clearly from the pictures, but I think that the thuluth on your blade is closer to the form seen on the fighting blades, and it does not seem to have the chain motif associated with most of the flat thuluth kaskaras. Brass guard is the same though. Looks like a flat non-functional blade though, made in the same way as the other examples with no peg to hold the blade in. I wonder if we have any more variants of these out there?