Kaskara - Translation?

Iain · 8th December 2012, 12:40 PM

These small sized kaskara with thuluth are an odd item to me. They seem to invariably look exactly the same - brass guard, distinct leather wrap which is broader than many kaskara.

They also seem to be mostly blunt. Because of all this I'm a bit mystified about what their purpose would have been, or even if they are something of an item made at the turn of the century due to the desire by British service members and travelers for something to take back home... I'm not saying that is necessarily the case and I'm not trying to be negative about the piece under discussion. I'm just bringing it up as an idea.

For me these slot in with the croc kaskara that also have thin, thuluth blades and no edge. A bit of a mystery all in all.

Mefidk · 8th December 2012, 02:44 PM

Seems to me that there are a number of types of thuluth to be found on weapons from this area. This example is very typical of the most commonly encountered. As far as I can see this particular type of thuluth with the kind of chain pattern around the edges seems to be normally associated with certain kinds of Sudanese weapons, namely blunt kaskara, knives and triple knife sets, and haldies. I do have a small curved knife with a bone handle with this pattern but this has a definite edge and is quite usable (edge could have been applied later though).

So I can't add much to the question of whether these kaskara are really old or newer (1900) tourist items. What I think we can be sure of is that they were not used as weapons. They have no edge, and if my guess is right no peg holding the blade in the grip meaning the short tang would not hold in the hilt if put under any real stress - at least my example does not as I found out when the crocodile held on to the blade a little too tightly

. They often also come with small crocodiles as scabbards which would be pretty impractical for daily use - e.g. legs would break off.
I know of provenanced examples dating to the turn of the centuary but not as yet before. I also have not seen this type of thuluth script on collections of arms with provenance from Omdurman or other Sudan wars battles prior to 1900.

All that said, it does not mean that these were not used for some other purpose or from non-Mahdist groups, perhaps used as status symbols e.g. slavers - but again why not decorate a real weapon instead?

Its still an open question as far as I'm concerned, but I guess that I'm leaning to turn of the 19C soldier's momentos. So it would be great to hear of earlier examples if they are out there and can prove this idea to be bogus?

There is one more interesting thing about the script. At least in my example it was translated to be repeated invocations of Allah, Mohammed, and Ali. The latter could be a useful clue since Sunni groups would not mention Ali. So perhaps this could be used to identify likely and unlikely ethnic groups as producers of these?

Chris

Iain · 8th December 2012, 03:10 PM

Hi Chris,

Great to hear your thoughts on these. Looking back on a few examples you are of course right.

The patterns seen on triple fuller or single fuller blades is different - and not the "chain" motif.

Just to illustrate - a little image from a takouba/kaskara blade (hope Wolf doesn't mind me using it

) and a flat croc kaskara I used to own.

I recall the same construction issues with a couple of knives that came with the aforementioned croc kaskara, can't recall if the kaskara itself lacked the hilt pin.

Mefidk · 8th December 2012, 03:42 PM

Thanks Iain - yes that's exactly what I was referring to - great you had the pictures to show it

Iain · 8th December 2012, 04:02 PM

Hi Chris,

Glad I could help illustrate your point. I can't recall, do you have any thuluth examples? I've only had the one mentioned above pass through my hands so sadly my experience with them is pretty lacking.

Mefidk · 8th December 2012, 10:43 PM

Iain - here's my thuluth kaskara of this type - with the chain pattern and crocodile scabbard. The writing appears to be a date 1123 (1650), something unknown followed a reference to a tomb. More than that I'm not sure. In the circles we have invocations to Allah, Mohammed and Ali, and the thuluth seems to repeat Allah & Mohammed.
Perhaps someone can figure out more?

Mefidk · 8th December 2012, 10:55 PM

Incidentally, while we are discussing kaskara and writing - I wonder what folk make of this one - pictures or writing? At one point the whole blade was decorated but now after many re-sharpenings all that remains is the pattern in the fuller extending all the way to the point - but what is it?

8th December 2012, 03:10 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Chris, Great to hear your thoughts on these. Looking back on a few examples you are of course right. The patterns seen on triple fuller or single fuller blades is different - and not the "chain" motif. Just to illustrate - a little image from a takouba/kaskara blade (hope Wolf doesn't mind me using it ) and a flat croc kaskara I used to own. I recall the same construction issues with a couple of knives that came with the aforementioned croc kaskara, can't recall if the kaskara itself lacked the hilt pin. Attached Images

8th December 2012, 10:43 PM	#6
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Iain - here's my thuluth kaskara of this type - with the chain pattern and crocodile scabbard. The writing appears to be a date 1123 (1650), something unknown followed a reference to a tomb. More than that I'm not sure. In the circles we have invocations to Allah, Mohammed and Ali, and the thuluth seems to repeat Allah & Mohammed. Perhaps someone can figure out more? Attached Images

8th December 2012, 10:55 PM	#7
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	and another kaskara question Incidentally, while we are discussing kaskara and writing - I wonder what folk make of this one - pictures or writing? At one point the whole blade was decorated but now after many re-sharpenings all that remains is the pattern in the fuller extending all the way to the point - but what is it? Attached Images

8th December 2012, 12:40 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	These small sized kaskara with thuluth are an odd item to me. They seem to invariably look exactly the same - brass guard, distinct leather wrap which is broader than many kaskara. They also seem to be mostly blunt. Because of all this I'm a bit mystified about what their purpose would have been, or even if they are something of an item made at the turn of the century due to the desire by British service members and travelers for something to take back home... I'm not saying that is necessarily the case and I'm not trying to be negative about the piece under discussion. I'm just bringing it up as an idea. For me these slot in with the croc kaskara that also have thin, thuluth blades and no edge. A bit of a mystery all in all.

8th December 2012, 02:44 PM	#2
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Seems to me that there are a number of types of thuluth to be found on weapons from this area. This example is very typical of the most commonly encountered. As far as I can see this particular type of thuluth with the kind of chain pattern around the edges seems to be normally associated with certain kinds of Sudanese weapons, namely blunt kaskara, knives and triple knife sets, and haldies. I do have a small curved knife with a bone handle with this pattern but this has a definite edge and is quite usable (edge could have been applied later though). So I can't add much to the question of whether these kaskara are really old or newer (1900) tourist items. What I think we can be sure of is that they were not used as weapons. They have no edge, and if my guess is right no peg holding the blade in the grip meaning the short tang would not hold in the hilt if put under any real stress - at least my example does not as I found out when the crocodile held on to the blade a little too tightly . They often also come with small crocodiles as scabbards which would be pretty impractical for daily use - e.g. legs would break off. I know of provenanced examples dating to the turn of the centuary but not as yet before. I also have not seen this type of thuluth script on collections of arms with provenance from Omdurman or other Sudan wars battles prior to 1900. All that said, it does not mean that these were not used for some other purpose or from non-Mahdist groups, perhaps used as status symbols e.g. slavers - but again why not decorate a real weapon instead? Its still an open question as far as I'm concerned, but I guess that I'm leaning to turn of the 19C soldier's momentos. So it would be great to hear of earlier examples if they are out there and can prove this idea to be bogus? There is one more interesting thing about the script. At least in my example it was translated to be repeated invocations of Allah, Mohammed, and Ali. The latter could be a useful clue since Sunni groups would not mention Ali. So perhaps this could be used to identify likely and unlikely ethnic groups as producers of these? Chris

8th December 2012, 03:42 PM	#4
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thanks Iain - yes that's exactly what I was referring to - great you had the pictures to show it

8th December 2012, 04:02 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Chris, Glad I could help illustrate your point. I can't recall, do you have any thuluth examples? I've only had the one mentioned above pass through my hands so sadly my experience with them is pretty lacking.