Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

[Henk]

Read these two threads.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14882
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4802

[Gustav]

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

[T. Koch]

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I am quite comfortable in saying that this blade is not from Jawa nor is it from Madura. Some of the characteristics do have a Madura appearance, but overall there is too much variation from Madura for it to fit this classification.
I do not wish to speculate on origin, but I do have a keris with very closely similar material and blade garap, ie, discounting the work in the sorsoran, and it was collected in Patani around 1920

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you very much for the clarification, I really needed it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

Hello Thor,

here a picture from a cross section through a hippo tooth where you clearly see the row of black spots. And now have a look to the picture Gustav posted.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for posting the pictures, agree, the pesi (and the blade) don't look like a Jawa one. Pesi look like of some of my Miang blades. Maybe Kai have given the direction.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, the pesi fits well within the parameters for both Javanese and Madura keris.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually, the pesi fits well within the parameters for both Javanese and Madura keris.

Hello Alan,

not to short and bulky?

[A. G. Maisey]

For a full size, normal Surakarta pakem keris the tang should be between 7cm. and 7.5cm.

But there is a great deal of variation possible when we move away from Surakarta and into other parts of Jawa, other districts, other Kraton standards, villages with no real standards, other time periods.

Madura tangs often display a smaller diameter directly above the gonjo, and bear evidence of a punch being used to tighten the gonjo to the pesi, this keris of Gustav's appears to have a hint of this narrowing and there might be traces of a punch being used --- but this is not sufficient to over-rule the things that say it is not Madura.

This is a small keris:- it will have a shorter pesi than the norm.

Madura keris usually have a longer pesi than Jawa mainland keris (Madura is a part of East Jawa --- something many people tend to forget).

In a quality Javanese keris the pesi will be substantial. The reason people think of Jawa keris as having spindly pesi is because usually we only see very sub-standard Javanese keris and usually those keris are in poor to extremely poor condition. Good quality Javanese keris are not flimsy, especially if they are relatively recent, say within the last 200-300 years, and in good condition..

[Sajen]

Alan,

thank you very much for this detailed execution.

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Henk

Sorry for the late answer.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

Thank you for the reply, Henk. Exactly that was my starting position.

[David]

Originally Posted by Henk

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

While i don't automatically agree with everything Mr. Maisey has to say, if there is one thing i do consider him expert in it is the Javanese keris, as he has made it a lifetime's study and is the only member here that i am aware of who apprenticed to a kraton mpu. So i am likely to accept his position stated in post #13 that this blade is not from Jawa or Madura.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, I have already stated that I am quite comfortable in my opinion that this is not a keris that was made in Jawa.

I am very seldom positive in my opinions unless I have good reason to be so, however, it is an opinion I have given, and any opinion from any person can be incorrect.

The link between various areas in Sumatra and Jawa is well known; the political links between Palembang and the House of Mataram is well known; the trade in Javanese blades throughout South East Asia is well known; the propensity of local smiths in areas outside Jawa to copy Javanese workmanship is well known. Nothing new in any of this.The trade in Javanese blades was well established by the 16th century, and is mentioned in the Book of Duarte Barbosa.

But when we look at a keris, we need to be able to do a lot better than just say:- "oh yes, its Javanese", or "oh yes, it could be Javanese".

We need to be able to say from where in Jawa it originated and at approximately what time. We need to be able to give it at the very least an approximate classification.

With the blade in question, although there are certain characteristics that have a Javanese quality to them, such as the gonjo, and a Madurese quality, such as the kembang kacang, the sogokan is not Javanese in nature, and especially the poyuhan is very uncharacteristic of Javanese garap. The pawakan is not characteristic of Javanese work, and the greneng, most especially the ron dha looks as if it has been cut by a blind man with palsy. It is terrible --- if we consider it as Javanese --- but for many of the other places where greneng and ron dha appear it is quite a usual representation. This is because in those other places the makers did not really understand the iconography of the greneng and the ron dha:- like virtually all people outside the pande clan, all they saw was a series of notches.

However, we can ignore all of that, and just look at the nature of the pamor and the exposure of the core of the blade. The way in which this has been done is something I have never seen in a Javanese blade, this has distinctly Bugis characteristics.

As I have said:- I have given an opinion, and any opinion can be wrong, but in this case I would need one hell of a lot of convincing that this opinion of mine is wrong.

[Henk]

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.
Your skills and education in keris as your native tongue can nail this issue way better down than i can. If i have to write down what you did it would take me a lot of time more. Time is at the moment very limited for me.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Henk

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

Henk, if this is so: I would be very thankful, if you could find some more time and comment on this blade, which also looks Javanese and also is mounted in Kedah dress. I would much appreciate your oppinion, put in a few necessary words.