African Three-Dagger sets

Iliad · 6th December 2012, 07:10 AM

A few more

Lew · 6th December 2012, 11:44 AM

Hi Brian

These daggers IMO do not look 92 yrs old to me? The hilts are poorly carved with no patina. The blade incisions are crude I would place these around 1950 or so not 1920. Anyway these sets of three daggers were geared towards the tourist trade back in the day. I never saw a photo with a warrior wearing this set of daggers

katana · 6th December 2012, 01:30 PM

Hi Brian,

have to agree with Lou, not as old as suggested by the seller.
I have a set of these which I believe are early 20th C ...maybe late 19th ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sudanese

Regards David

Congoblades · 6th December 2012, 02:36 PM

(picture below) These three knives with sheath probably date to the time of Mohammed Ahmed (1848-85) and the (Mahdi) revolutionary insurrection against colonial rule in Sudan. The double-edged blades are engraved on both sides with Arabic calligraphy. The use of crocodile hide on the sheath may have offered powerful warrior energy to the owner.

Source:
http://searchcollections.brighton-ho...+skin&record=0

some more:
http://atkinson-swords.com/SwordsAnd...se_Knives.html

http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/207/arab/sud3.html

katana · 6th December 2012, 03:35 PM

Hi Congoblades,
thank you for the links. The picture of the knives and sheath are almost identical to mine

I read that the 3 knife set was worn around the neck (as shown in your picture) or tied to the upper arm. These apparently were a "badge of command" ...I will try and find the reference

Kind Regards David

.

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 06:20 PM

I am inclined to find dismal assessments of ethnographic weapons tossed into the 'tourist' category both discouraging and disappointing. Discouraging for the collector and disappointing in that these proclamations tend to be judgemental and poorly qualified.
It seems that these weapons are from a grouping which seems to include other Sudanese items, and it is clearly stated these are from an estate which notes these were collected in about 1920 from there. With this as a terminus post quem, it seems reasonable to consider these from between the Mahdist period and until then.

It was interesting reviewing those old threads, especially from 2005, when I had thought this thuluth acid etching, not engraving, was done at Omdurman presumably by armourers for the Mahdist forces. I have since realigned my thoughts in discovering that this type of decorative motif was associated profoundly with the Mamluks, who remained in somewhat nominal power among the Ottoman rule in Egypt. Many of them due to the strained relations there had relocated in regions in Dongola and Sennar in trade activity, particularly slaving. Here many weapons came in through Suakin and other avenues, and I believe the Mamluk style thuluth was applied to them for dispersion via trade routes. The Mamluks were routed in 1821, however thier influences remained influential it would seem.

In my opinion these weapons in circulation were undoubtedly used during the Mahdist campaigns, and heavily collected in the subsequent occupation and events through WWI , probably in degree as seen here until the 1920s.
Tribal interaction and warfare continued in rural and remote regions much as always well through the 1920s and later. There was dramatic cessation of arms production, especially swords, after the Caliphate, but daggers were still made. I believe the thuluth covered examples are among the earlier,probably late 19th c. items.

The lack of patination, as was recently pointed out to me in discussion, with these kinds of situations with items out of early collections, is to be somewhat expected in pieces that have remained static in reasonably unthreatened conditions for many years.

The early photo of Sudanese warriors with one wearing this dagger pouch around the neck is telling, and I think the idea that these are tribally significant as badges of rank or authority (as noted by David) is well placed. The use of various weapons and implements etc. seems to explain the variations such as ivory grips on haladies and the alem heavily covered in thuluth as a standard.

The other pouch with less significant, but traditional designs on the blades seems in context but not as highly placed. It is interesting to see the horned pommel which is remarkably similar to those seen on the Black Sea yataghans, which likely led to the suggestion these originated in North Africa. Plausibly, examples of the BSY entered the Ottoman and Red Sea trade from Turkish ports and perhaps influenced hilts in Sudan via Egypt.

Again, very nice examples Brian!

All the best,
Jim

regihis · 6th December 2012, 07:17 PM

I have two daggers Mahdists. If they are exposed without protection are taken completely by rust.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15063

I am sure there is a market for copies (In the swaille coast? India?) of these weapons Mahdists somewhere in Africa.

6th December 2012, 07:10 AM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	A few more Attached Images

6th December 2012, 11:44 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Brian These daggers IMO do not look 92 yrs old to me? The hilts are poorly carved with no patina. The blade incisions are crude I would place these around 1950 or so not 1920. Anyway these sets of three daggers were geared towards the tourist trade back in the day. I never saw a photo with a warrior wearing this set of daggers Last edited by Lew; 6th December 2012 at 12:37 PM.

6th December 2012, 02:36 PM	#4
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	(picture below) These three knives with sheath probably date to the time of Mohammed Ahmed (1848-85) and the (Mahdi) revolutionary insurrection against colonial rule in Sudan. The double-edged blades are engraved on both sides with Arabic calligraphy. The use of crocodile hide on the sheath may have offered powerful warrior energy to the owner. Source: http://searchcollections.brighton-ho...+skin&record=0 some more: http://atkinson-swords.com/SwordsAnd...se_Knives.html http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/207/arab/sud3.html Attached Images

6th December 2012, 03:35 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Congoblades, thank you for the links. The picture of the knives and sheath are almost identical to mine I read that the 3 knife set was worn around the neck (as shown in your picture) or tied to the upper arm. These apparently were a "badge of command" ...I will try and find the reference Kind Regards David . Attached Images

6th December 2012, 06:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I am inclined to find dismal assessments of ethnographic weapons tossed into the 'tourist' category both discouraging and disappointing. Discouraging for the collector and disappointing in that these proclamations tend to be judgemental and poorly qualified. It seems that these weapons are from a grouping which seems to include other Sudanese items, and it is clearly stated these are from an estate which notes these were collected in about 1920 from there. With this as a terminus post quem, it seems reasonable to consider these from between the Mahdist period and until then. It was interesting reviewing those old threads, especially from 2005, when I had thought this thuluth acid etching, not engraving, was done at Omdurman presumably by armourers for the Mahdist forces. I have since realigned my thoughts in discovering that this type of decorative motif was associated profoundly with the Mamluks, who remained in somewhat nominal power among the Ottoman rule in Egypt. Many of them due to the strained relations there had relocated in regions in Dongola and Sennar in trade activity, particularly slaving. Here many weapons came in through Suakin and other avenues, and I believe the Mamluk style thuluth was applied to them for dispersion via trade routes. The Mamluks were routed in 1821, however thier influences remained influential it would seem. In my opinion these weapons in circulation were undoubtedly used during the Mahdist campaigns, and heavily collected in the subsequent occupation and events through WWI , probably in degree as seen here until the 1920s. Tribal interaction and warfare continued in rural and remote regions much as always well through the 1920s and later. There was dramatic cessation of arms production, especially swords, after the Caliphate, but daggers were still made. I believe the thuluth covered examples are among the earlier,probably late 19th c. items. The lack of patination, as was recently pointed out to me in discussion, with these kinds of situations with items out of early collections, is to be somewhat expected in pieces that have remained static in reasonably unthreatened conditions for many years. The early photo of Sudanese warriors with one wearing this dagger pouch around the neck is telling, and I think the idea that these are tribally significant as badges of rank or authority (as noted by David) is well placed. The use of various weapons and implements etc. seems to explain the variations such as ivory grips on haladies and the alem heavily covered in thuluth as a standard. The other pouch with less significant, but traditional designs on the blades seems in context but not as highly placed. It is interesting to see the horned pommel which is remarkably similar to those seen on the Black Sea yataghans, which likely led to the suggestion these originated in North Africa. Plausibly, examples of the BSY entered the Ottoman and Red Sea trade from Turkish ports and perhaps influenced hilts in Sudan via Egypt. Again, very nice examples Brian! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th December 2012 at 11:29 PM.

6th December 2012, 01:30 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Brian, have to agree with Lou, not as old as suggested by the seller. I have a set of these which I believe are early 20th C ...maybe late 19th ? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sudanese Regards David

6th December 2012, 07:17 PM	#7
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	I have two daggers Mahdists. If they are exposed without protection are taken completely by rust. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15063 I am sure there is a market for copies (In the swaille coast? India?) of these weapons Mahdists somewhere in Africa.