GELAR PAMERAN KERIS NASIONAL 2012 - short review

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 07:27 AM

well I believe that's all I managed to capture using my phone-cam

I hope you all enjoyed the show as much as I do

and if there's another exhibition nearby, I will surely be glad to document and shared with all of you

thank you, for the appreciation

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2012, 08:30 AM

Satsujinken, you have very accurately identified some of the base problems with tangguh, many, if not most people with some understanding of the system almost invariably align tangguh with age. Only in a few instances can this hold true, by and large tangguh does not necessarily align with age. For the group of people who were responsible for the generation of the tangguh system, the objective of the system was not to determine age, most especially was it not to determine age in the context of Western European ideas of historical time. It is probably not possible to truly understand tangguh unless one is able to adopt a mode of thought that comes somewhere close to the mode of thought of 19th century Javanese aristocrats.

Yes, to learn the basics of tangguh one needs firstly a teacher who is widely acknowledged as skilled in the application of the system, secondly one needs a lot of very, very good examples for that teacher to teach from, and thirdly one needs to have handled a very great number of keris over a very long period of time. Not very many people are able to satisfy all these requirements. In fact almost no collectors are able to satisfy these requirements, the real experts in tangguh will always be found amongst dealers, and only those dealers who have had the benefit of long and open instruction from a recognised authority.

I do agree that a great deal of dedication is required in order to gain some understanding of tangguh, and also more than a little money:- no education comes for free.

One of the problems with tangguh rests in the way that most people try to apply their knowledge in order to form an opinion. It is in most cases a matter of "it looks like Mataram, so it must be Mataram", but if you then ask them to indicate the tells that have allowed them to form the opinion that they are looking at a Mataram keris, what you get back is a muddled mish-mash of impressions, rather than the clear, straight forward analysis that should be possible if the keris truly is Mataram. As I said earlier:- everybody wants to hang a tangguh on everything and that is not at all how the system was designed.

Not a lot of people are brave enough to say that there are insufficient tells to permit a nomination of a tangguh, because that might allow people to think that they do not have a good level of knowledge. In fact, the person with a high knowledge of tangguh will have no problem at all in saying that the keris does not display sufficient tells (or indicators) to permit an opinion to be formed. Tangguh was designed to be applied to high quality blades, not pot boilers from village forges, but how often does the average collector get to see very high quality blades? Very, very seldom.

Tangguh does work, and it works well as a system of classification, but only if it is applied by a person with sufficient knowledge and understanding to be able to substantiate his opinion, and to work within the limits of the system.

Incidentally, you've done a great job with the photos, congratulations, and thank you for making these available to us all.

satsujinken · 28th November 2012, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Satsujinken, you have very accurately identified some of the base problems with tangguh, many, if not most people with some understanding of the system almost invariably align tangguh with age. Only in a few instances can this hold true, by and large tangguh does not necessarily align with age. For the group of people who were responsible for the generation of the tangguh system, the objective of the system was not to determine age, most especially was it not to determine age in the context of Western European ideas of historical time. It is probably not possible to truly understand tangguh unless one is able to adopt a mode of thought that comes somewhere close to the mode of thought of 19th century Javanese aristocrats.

Yes, to learn the basics of tangguh one needs firstly a teacher who is widely acknowledged as skilled in the application of the system, secondly one needs a lot of very, very good examples for that teacher to teach from, and thirdly one needs to have handled a very great number of keris over a very long period of time. Not very many people are able to satisfy all these requirements. In fact almost no collectors are able to satisfy these requirements, the real experts in tangguh will always be found amongst dealers, and only those dealers who have had the benefit of long and open instruction from a recognised authority.

I do agree that a great deal of dedication is required in order to gain some understanding of tangguh, and also more than a little money:- no education comes for free.

One of the problems with tangguh rests in the way that most people try to apply their knowledge in order to form an opinion. It is in most cases a matter of "it looks like Mataram, so it must be Mataram", but if you then ask them to indicate the tells that have allowed them to form the opinion that they are looking at a Mataram keris, what you get back is a muddled mish-mash of impressions, rather than the clear, straight forward analysis that should be possible if the keris truly is Mataram. As I said earlier:- everybody wants to hang a tangguh on everything and that is not at all how the system was designed.

Not a lot of people are brave enough to say that there are insufficient tells to permit a nomination of a tangguh, because that might allow people to think that they do not have a good level of knowledge. In fact, the person with a high knowledge of tangguh will have no problem at all in saying that the keris does not display sufficient tells (or indicators) to permit an opinion to be formed. Tangguh was designed to be applied to high quality blades, not pot boilers from village forges, but how often does the average collector get to see very high quality blades? Very, very seldom.

Tangguh does work, and it works well as a system of classification, but only if it is applied by a person with sufficient knowledge and understanding to be able to substantiate his opinion, and to work within the limits of the system.

Incidentally, you've done a great job with the photos, congratulations, and thank you for making these available to us all.

thank you

and like I said before, considering expert in your calibre is getting rarer, Indonesian government should provide you with Living National Treasure title ... and perhaps opening an institute on subject of tosan aji

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2012, 05:07 AM

My understanding of carbon dating is very limited, but I think it can only be used on organic substances, in addition to this, the time span involved with the keris is probably too small for carbon dating to be useful, then there are the technical problems involving contamination and the assumptions involving rate of decay. I doubt that carbon dating would be of any use for keris blades, and even if it were, I doubt that it would be relevant. To know the age of any particular keris might satisfy curiosity but that's about all.

satsujinken · 28th November 2012, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My understanding of carbon dating is very limited, but I think it can only be used on organic substances, in addition to this, the time span involved with the keris is probably too small for carbon dating to be useful, then there are the technical problems involving contamination and the assumptions involving rate of decay. I doubt that carbon dating would be of any use for keris blades, and even if it were, I doubt that it would be relevant. To know the age of any particular keris might satisfy curiosity but that's about all.

regarding radio carbon dating, I got most of my information from here :

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...Cook-0305.html

it can be relevant, but not without flaws ...

but I am agree with you, that it will only satisfy curiosity and nothing else

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2012, 08:40 AM

Thanks for that Satsu.

As I said, I know very little about this, and after doing a bit of googleizing, I understand even less.

I read some sites , that appear to be academically based and they tell me that radio carbon dating applies to organic substances, but then I read others that refer to radio carbon dating of iron.

I accept that iron can be carbon dated. I don't think I need to know more than that, this is not my area of interest.

27th November 2012, 08:30 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Satsujinken, you have very accurately identified some of the base problems with tangguh, many, if not most people with some understanding of the system almost invariably align tangguh with age. Only in a few instances can this hold true, by and large tangguh does not necessarily align with age. For the group of people who were responsible for the generation of the tangguh system, the objective of the system was not to determine age, most especially was it not to determine age in the context of Western European ideas of historical time. It is probably not possible to truly understand tangguh unless one is able to adopt a mode of thought that comes somewhere close to the mode of thought of 19th century Javanese aristocrats. Yes, to learn the basics of tangguh one needs firstly a teacher who is widely acknowledged as skilled in the application of the system, secondly one needs a lot of very, very good examples for that teacher to teach from, and thirdly one needs to have handled a very great number of keris over a very long period of time. Not very many people are able to satisfy all these requirements. In fact almost no collectors are able to satisfy these requirements, the real experts in tangguh will always be found amongst dealers, and only those dealers who have had the benefit of long and open instruction from a recognised authority. I do agree that a great deal of dedication is required in order to gain some understanding of tangguh, and also more than a little money:- no education comes for free. One of the problems with tangguh rests in the way that most people try to apply their knowledge in order to form an opinion. It is in most cases a matter of "it looks like Mataram, so it must be Mataram", but if you then ask them to indicate the tells that have allowed them to form the opinion that they are looking at a Mataram keris, what you get back is a muddled mish-mash of impressions, rather than the clear, straight forward analysis that should be possible if the keris truly is Mataram. As I said earlier:- everybody wants to hang a tangguh on everything and that is not at all how the system was designed. Not a lot of people are brave enough to say that there are insufficient tells to permit a nomination of a tangguh, because that might allow people to think that they do not have a good level of knowledge. In fact, the person with a high knowledge of tangguh will have no problem at all in saying that the keris does not display sufficient tells (or indicators) to permit an opinion to be formed. Tangguh was designed to be applied to high quality blades, not pot boilers from village forges, but how often does the average collector get to see very high quality blades? Very, very seldom. Tangguh does work, and it works well as a system of classification, but only if it is applied by a person with sufficient knowledge and understanding to be able to substantiate his opinion, and to work within the limits of the system. Incidentally, you've done a great job with the photos, congratulations, and thank you for making these available to us all. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 27th November 2012 at 09:00 PM.

27th November 2012, 07:27 AM	#1
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	well I believe that's all I managed to capture using my phone-cam I hope you all enjoyed the show as much as I do and if there's another exhibition nearby, I will surely be glad to document and shared with all of you thank you, for the appreciation

28th November 2012, 05:07 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	My understanding of carbon dating is very limited, but I think it can only be used on organic substances, in addition to this, the time span involved with the keris is probably too small for carbon dating to be useful, then there are the technical problems involving contamination and the assumptions involving rate of decay. I doubt that carbon dating would be of any use for keris blades, and even if it were, I doubt that it would be relevant. To know the age of any particular keris might satisfy curiosity but that's about all.

28th November 2012, 08:40 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Thanks for that Satsu. As I said, I know very little about this, and after doing a bit of googleizing, I understand even less. I read some sites , that appear to be academically based and they tell me that radio carbon dating applies to organic substances, but then I read others that refer to radio carbon dating of iron. I accept that iron can be carbon dated. I don't think I need to know more than that, this is not my area of interest.