Two-Handed Great Sword

fernando · 25th November 2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dana_w

... Fernando posted some photos of a ceremonial montante from the Lisbon Military Museum. It too has unusual flukes close to a basket type guard...

You are right Dana,
I was only reasoning as to give consistency to your mentioning that nobody likes the flukes positioning.
The sword you point out at the Mlitary Museum, Vasco da Gama 'ceremonial' montante, is a different variation in that, there is a portion of ricasso after the flukes, to possibilitate for handling ... a bit like the half sword styling, if i may say so.

I thank Cornelistromp for coming in with his opinion, which undoubtedly has a far more considerable knowledge in this area.
... and i too reiterate that your sword is extremely appealing.

.

dana_w · 25th November 2012, 03:41 PM

Thanks for the info Cornelistromp, Jim McDougall, and Fernando. I'm glad you like the sword.

I'll take a look at Fedrico Visconti today. I have been reading about The Visconti Castle / St. Vitus.

http://www.castelloviscontidisanvito.it/cvisconti.html

The Visconti rule in Milan seems to have ended with the death of Filippo Maria Visconti in 1447. He was the last direct male descendant of Ottone Visconti (?).

The heraldic motif of the biscione is in wide use today. For example, the city of Milan, the Alfa Romeo Logo, and even the Inter Milan Football Club. There is a lively debate on whether the snake is swallowing or giving birth, and whether a man or a child is depicted. The origin of the biscione has been attributed to the arms of a Saracen warrior. This warrior was supposedly killed by Ottone Visconti during the crusades, Ottone then adopted the the symbol. Another version has Ottone killing an enormous snake that liked to eat children. The snake is said to have lived in lake Gerundo near Milan. Nothing survives of Lake Gerundo today.

Fernando, It looks like you are a moderator, can you help me get out of "new user purgatory" so that I can send private messages?

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2012, 04:50 PM

Hi Dana,
Thank you for your kind response, and the two books I mentioned, the one by Boccia & Coelho included ("Armi Bianci Italiene") included, are rather hard to find and enormously expensive and I dont believe have enough data specific to this sword to warrant such expense. As for research on these arms in general they are priceless!
In my comments I noted that I felt the sword was likely ceremonial in probably a guards sword of possibly early 19th and slightly earlier, but quite honestly was uncomfortable with the idea of too much earlier in the 18th c. without knowing more on this topic, despite sensing that might be the case.

Jasper has perfectly assessed this and I very much agree with his speculation, as well as this being a processional sword, a capacity I had overlooked. Much as with heading type swords as bearing swords used as symbols of authority in various city states, kingdoms and other principalities, these huge swords were most visually impressive.
I agree also the sword was not necessarily made in Milan, but it does certainly as I noted carry certain elemental features of some of these swords made in Italy, and included representationally.

The best place to begin searching more detailed information is online, but using Wikipedia with caution as a benchmark to find key words, names and references that you can substantiate further with online searches. The information Jasper has provided already is quite soundly placed.

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 26th November 2012, 02:34 PM

in addition of post# 8, an image of Federico Visconti after a painting by Bernardino Baldi, Rijksmuseum Amsterdam.(RM#82048)

the arms of the Visconti in combination with the cross.

best,

dana_w · 26th November 2012, 03:36 PM

Thank you for the images cornelistromp.

Matt Easton · 23rd December 2012, 08:04 AM

A very interesting sword. At first sight I also thought it was a later processional weapon, but I think that given the balance of evidence and some of the details of the design, it may very well be an honest 17thC weapon. Perhaps with a later replacement grip (this is not uncommon - most 17th century weapons in museums have replacement grips!).

I have to throw in a bit of correction as to people's views of these weapons - these were guards' weapons at this time and in fact the use of the greatsword was still very widespread in Italian, Spanish and Portugese fencing schools right up until the end of the 17th century - the 'spadone' (Italian greatsword) is covered by Alfieri's teachings in the 1640's for example, and various 'montante' (Spanish greatsword) texts have come to light in recent years. The Iberian treatises make it very clear that the primary purpose of these swords was so that one guard could defend a bridge, street or doorway from a number of opponents, presumably whilst support was called or his prince made a speedy exit! Whilst they were apparently opposed to pikes on the battlefield in some cases, this does not seem to have been their primary purpose.

The next point I want to make is about the projecting spikes on the ricasso - these were NOT primarily to allow halfswording. You can halfsword with any sword and it is shown in numerous earlier treatises dealing with longswords, messers and even rapiers. What these projections were for was to give added protection to the hands when binding against an opponent's blade - the extra length and force of two-handed sword blades puts the hands at terrible risk (Henry VIII's officials noted that no gauntlets could properly protect from them) and so these projections are forged on the blade to help prevent the opponent's blade sliding down and taking a chunk out of your hand. There are many examples of greatswords with these projections near the hilt, not least those swords shown in Marozzo's treatise of 1536:

Anyway, I hope this is helpful and thanks for sharing the photos of that sword. It's a very interesting piece.

fernando · 23rd December 2012, 11:51 AM

Thank you so much for the corrections, Matt.
My experience of reading about 'montantes', a term also used by Portuguese, comes from reading chronicles of the discoveries period, where this type of sword was used in Asia to clear the path in battle, handled by well trained nobility who mainly fought in front of their horde.
I have tried to give my mentioning ... a bit like the half sword styling, if i may say so. a figurative sense ... but i see that it was an unfortunate approach. On the other hand, i was perfectly convinced that the spikes were to propect the user's hand when (?) holding the sword by the ricasso. I stand corrected; will have to adjust my perspective on this one.

Matt Easton · 23rd December 2012, 12:14 PM

Thanks Fernando - I should add that in fact Marozzo does show halfswording with the ricasso being gripped (so it was done), but I think that this was not the primary purpose of these projections, because they seem to have developed from the flarred ricasso found on 15th century fencing longswords and in quite a lot of 16th-17th century examples it is not really practical to hold the ricasso because of the guard rings being in the way (or the spikes being too close to the hilt, as here).
Regards,
Matt

26th November 2012, 02:34 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	in addition of post# 8, an image of Federico Visconti after a painting by Bernardino Baldi, Rijksmuseum Amsterdam.(RM#82048) the arms of the Visconti in combination with the cross. best, Attached Images

25th November 2012, 03:41 PM	#2
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Thanks for the info Cornelistromp, Jim McDougall, and Fernando. I'm glad you like the sword. I'll take a look at Fedrico Visconti today. I have been reading about The Visconti Castle / St. Vitus. http://www.castelloviscontidisanvito.it/cvisconti.html The Visconti rule in Milan seems to have ended with the death of Filippo Maria Visconti in 1447. He was the last direct male descendant of Ottone Visconti (?). The heraldic motif of the biscione is in wide use today. For example, the city of Milan, the Alfa Romeo Logo, and even the Inter Milan Football Club. There is a lively debate on whether the snake is swallowing or giving birth, and whether a man or a child is depicted. The origin of the biscione has been attributed to the arms of a Saracen warrior. This warrior was supposedly killed by Ottone Visconti during the crusades, Ottone then adopted the the symbol. Another version has Ottone killing an enormous snake that liked to eat children. The snake is said to have lived in lake Gerundo near Milan. Nothing survives of Lake Gerundo today. Fernando, It looks like you are a moderator, can you help me get out of "new user purgatory" so that I can send private messages?

25th November 2012, 04:50 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Dana, Thank you for your kind response, and the two books I mentioned, the one by Boccia & Coelho included ("Armi Bianci Italiene") included, are rather hard to find and enormously expensive and I dont believe have enough data specific to this sword to warrant such expense. As for research on these arms in general they are priceless! In my comments I noted that I felt the sword was likely ceremonial in probably a guards sword of possibly early 19th and slightly earlier, but quite honestly was uncomfortable with the idea of too much earlier in the 18th c. without knowing more on this topic, despite sensing that might be the case. Jasper has perfectly assessed this and I very much agree with his speculation, as well as this being a processional sword, a capacity I had overlooked. Much as with heading type swords as bearing swords used as symbols of authority in various city states, kingdoms and other principalities, these huge swords were most visually impressive. I agree also the sword was not necessarily made in Milan, but it does certainly as I noted carry certain elemental features of some of these swords made in Italy, and included representationally. The best place to begin searching more detailed information is online, but using Wikipedia with caution as a benchmark to find key words, names and references that you can substantiate further with online searches. The information Jasper has provided already is quite soundly placed. All the best, Jim

26th November 2012, 03:36 PM	#5
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Thank you for the images cornelistromp.

23rd December 2012, 08:04 AM	#6
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	A very interesting sword. At first sight I also thought it was a later processional weapon, but I think that given the balance of evidence and some of the details of the design, it may very well be an honest 17thC weapon. Perhaps with a later replacement grip (this is not uncommon - most 17th century weapons in museums have replacement grips!). I have to throw in a bit of correction as to people's views of these weapons - these were guards' weapons at this time and in fact the use of the greatsword was still very widespread in Italian, Spanish and Portugese fencing schools right up until the end of the 17th century - the 'spadone' (Italian greatsword) is covered by Alfieri's teachings in the 1640's for example, and various 'montante' (Spanish greatsword) texts have come to light in recent years. The Iberian treatises make it very clear that the primary purpose of these swords was so that one guard could defend a bridge, street or doorway from a number of opponents, presumably whilst support was called or his prince made a speedy exit! Whilst they were apparently opposed to pikes on the battlefield in some cases, this does not seem to have been their primary purpose. The next point I want to make is about the projecting spikes on the ricasso - these were NOT primarily to allow halfswording. You can halfsword with any sword and it is shown in numerous earlier treatises dealing with longswords, messers and even rapiers. What these projections were for was to give added protection to the hands when binding against an opponent's blade - the extra length and force of two-handed sword blades puts the hands at terrible risk (Henry VIII's officials noted that no gauntlets could properly protect from them) and so these projections are forged on the blade to help prevent the opponent's blade sliding down and taking a chunk out of your hand. There are many examples of greatswords with these projections near the hilt, not least those swords shown in Marozzo's treatise of 1536: Anyway, I hope this is helpful and thanks for sharing the photos of that sword. It's a very interesting piece.

23rd December 2012, 11:51 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for the corrections, Matt. My experience of reading about 'montantes', a term also used by Portuguese, comes from reading chronicles of the discoveries period, where this type of sword was used in Asia to clear the path in battle, handled by well trained nobility who mainly fought in front of their horde. I have tried to give my mentioning ... a bit like the half sword styling, if i may say so. a figurative sense ... but i see that it was an unfortunate approach. On the other hand, i was perfectly convinced that the spikes were to propect the user's hand when (?) holding the sword by the ricasso. I stand corrected; will have to adjust my perspective on this one.

23rd December 2012, 12:14 PM	#8
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks Fernando - I should add that in fact Marozzo does show halfswording with the ricasso being gripped (so it was done), but I think that this was not the primary purpose of these projections, because they seem to have developed from the flarred ricasso found on 15th century fencing longswords and in quite a lot of 16th-17th century examples it is not really practical to hold the ricasso because of the guard rings being in the way (or the spikes being too close to the hilt, as here). Regards, Matt