Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites

Wodimi · 15th October 2012, 04:50 PM

Dear Emanuel,

thanks for your friendly words :-)
Even I don't speak French, I would be happy if you can send me a copy of Camille Lacoste Dujardin's article on "Sabres Kabyles". My friend Mauro from Italy speak French and together I'm sure we will work it out.
My email is wodimi@gmx.de .
You're right it would work effective as a short side-arm, no question.
Thanks at first and if you have time you can have a look (sure all other member too) under www.africanarms.com . I just started to build up a new page to share my passion with friends with the same virus.

Best
Wolf

Ole S · 13th January 2019, 09:56 PM

Hi, maybe this is coming somewhat late. Earlier in the thread you discuss the Flissa in the Real Armeria, Madrid that came as a gift in 1827.
I believe that it can be seen in the 1907 inventory by AF Calvert (“Spanish Arms and Armour Being a Historical and Descriptive Account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid. London. John Lane. The Bodley Head New York, Lohn Lane Company 1907). The Flissa has number 1604 and is shown on Plate 217 as shown in the picture.
Regards Ole

G. Mansfield · 2nd May 2019, 12:21 AM

I am wondering why the description of 1580 is listed as "Dagger of the Kabyles", which is a yatagan, while 1604 is the flissa listed as "gourma, or dagger". Could this have been a mistake on as the tags do not correspond to the descriptions between these two? Has anyone previously noticed this?

-Geoff

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2019, 03:25 AM

Its always great to see these old threads brought to life, especially as we have made so many new discoveries and perspectives in learning more on these many weapon forms. As can be seen, this particular one began in 2010, but we had been discussing these flyssa long before that.

The Calvert work is actually a rework of the earlier inventories by Don Juan de Valencia, compiled 1898 but actually completed many years prior. These works of course, though valuable references in degree, are not without flaws and errors. ….those pointed out here notwithstanding.

In our quest to discover the earliest known flyssa, the 1827 reference which refers to the one presented to King Ferdinand VII by Don Pedro Ortiz de Guzasti who was special consul to Algiers at that time. If the photos seen in this thread earlier of the example are correctly noted, we can see that the flyssa as a form was surely established by this time.

It has been held that the flyssa itself likely evolved as an interpretation of the deep bellied yatagan of the Ottomans (cf. 1580). As I mentioned some years ago, there is in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) a knife/dagger from Naples dated 1774 (#774) as I have attached.
This has a remarkably 'flyssa' like look, and perhaps it may be considered to have some sort of connection to these edged weapons of Algeria and the Kabyles.
Whether the well known influences of Italian trade in the Algerian littoral might have influenced the form as evolved in Kabylia, or perhaps the Italians saw a fully developed flyssa form and it influenced a dagger form they fashioned. It would be hard to say, but the similarity is compelling.

The flyssa itself, has long been a puzzle as to how it was actually used. As far as I have known, there have been no recorded observations of these used in combat. There is I believe a painting showing Kabyles wielding these but artistic license cannot be ruled out. One of these captured by the French Foreign Legion in 1857 , though taken, does not indicate it was taken in combat. These are terribly unwieldy weapons, and have seemed to be a weapon which is that of a rite of passage, more ceremonial or traditional item rather than actually used weapon.

It would be interesting to see others views, and/or examples, and thought it worthwhile to reopen the discussion.

Kubur · 2nd May 2019, 10:01 AM

In the article mentioned above the whole history of flissa is explained: since the arrival of the Ottomans in the 16th c. and the specialization of the iflissen in this industry. Some flissa look like yataghans and others are more thin and North Africans. So the flissa date at least from the 16thc. no mystery to me.
No mystery at least after the 16th c. before???

Battara · 2nd May 2019, 04:26 PM

The same thought went through my mind as well - after Ottoman contact the blade form changed to look more yataghan like.

Kubur · 2nd May 2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The same thought went through my mind as well - after Ottoman contact the blade form changed to look more yataghan like.

Absolutely!

Now I have two questions:

Is the original flissa sword started with the Ottomans and evolved to a Maghrebi / North African shape with a long and narrow blade?

Or

is the pre-Ottoman flissa sword Magrebi / Berber evolved to a Yataghan-ish shape after the 16th c. ?

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2019, 05:41 PM

I think the questions of the 'flyssa' have been based mostly on just how old a weapon is it? and how did it evolve?
The work "Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste-Dujardine does describe the history of the sword of the Kabyles from the Ottoman period, but the question has been, did it exist prior to this?

Basically all that can be somewhat agreed is that the swords in these regions probably derived from forms of either kopis, falcata or some form of these Mediterranean weapons. The general similarity to Ottoman yataghan of 16th century is noted, and Jose brings up a very good point, perhaps the design, whatever form it was in, assimilated that of that Ottoman form.

There are of course no mentions of 'flyssa' in early Arab accounts such as al-Idrisi (12th c) or Ibn Khaldun (14th c) as noted in Spring ("African Arms and Armor" ,1993, p.22), this is understandable as the term is modern (c. 1820s).
The first use of the term as previously discussed was 1827, but in the images of one also in earlier posts here reveal that this form was in place by then.

While the Kabyles managed to remain autonomous due to their remote and rugged regions, they were still in nominal contact with Ottomans, and I have understood they had strong affinity for the Ottoman yataghan. One of the key factors in the Iflisen form sword we are discussing (flyssa) are the decorations and unique styling.

So we know that the Kabyles had some type of sword in the time before 1827, and at that time the form we know as flyssa was evolved. With the Ottoman presence in the 16th c. perhaps versions of their existing swords influenced by yataghans adapted accordingly and into the form we recognize.

13th January 2019, 09:56 PM	#2
Ole S Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 7	Hi, maybe this is coming somewhat late. Earlier in the thread you discuss the Flissa in the Real Armeria, Madrid that came as a gift in 1827. I believe that it can be seen in the 1907 inventory by AF Calvert (“Spanish Arms and Armour Being a Historical and Descriptive Account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid. London. John Lane. The Bodley Head New York, Lohn Lane Company 1907). The Flissa has number 1604 and is shown on Plate 217 as shown in the picture. Regards Ole Attached Images

2nd May 2019, 03:25 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Its always great to see these old threads brought to life, especially as we have made so many new discoveries and perspectives in learning more on these many weapon forms. As can be seen, this particular one began in 2010, but we had been discussing these flyssa long before that. The Calvert work is actually a rework of the earlier inventories by Don Juan de Valencia, compiled 1898 but actually completed many years prior. These works of course, though valuable references in degree, are not without flaws and errors. ….those pointed out here notwithstanding. In our quest to discover the earliest known flyssa, the 1827 reference which refers to the one presented to King Ferdinand VII by Don Pedro Ortiz de Guzasti who was special consul to Algiers at that time. If the photos seen in this thread earlier of the example are correctly noted, we can see that the flyssa as a form was surely established by this time. It has been held that the flyssa itself likely evolved as an interpretation of the deep bellied yatagan of the Ottomans (cf. 1580). As I mentioned some years ago, there is in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) a knife/dagger from Naples dated 1774 (#774) as I have attached. This has a remarkably 'flyssa' like look, and perhaps it may be considered to have some sort of connection to these edged weapons of Algeria and the Kabyles. Whether the well known influences of Italian trade in the Algerian littoral might have influenced the form as evolved in Kabylia, or perhaps the Italians saw a fully developed flyssa form and it influenced a dagger form they fashioned. It would be hard to say, but the similarity is compelling. The flyssa itself, has long been a puzzle as to how it was actually used. As far as I have known, there have been no recorded observations of these used in combat. There is I believe a painting showing Kabyles wielding these but artistic license cannot be ruled out. One of these captured by the French Foreign Legion in 1857 , though taken, does not indicate it was taken in combat. These are terribly unwieldy weapons, and have seemed to be a weapon which is that of a rite of passage, more ceremonial or traditional item rather than actually used weapon. It would be interesting to see others views, and/or examples, and thought it worthwhile to reopen the discussion. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd May 2019 at 03:47 AM.

2nd May 2019, 05:41 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I think the questions of the 'flyssa' have been based mostly on just how old a weapon is it? and how did it evolve? The work "Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste-Dujardine does describe the history of the sword of the Kabyles from the Ottoman period, but the question has been, did it exist prior to this? Basically all that can be somewhat agreed is that the swords in these regions probably derived from forms of either kopis, falcata or some form of these Mediterranean weapons. The general similarity to Ottoman yataghan of 16th century is noted, and Jose brings up a very good point, perhaps the design, whatever form it was in, assimilated that of that Ottoman form. There are of course no mentions of 'flyssa' in early Arab accounts such as al-Idrisi (12th c) or Ibn Khaldun (14th c) as noted in Spring ("African Arms and Armor" ,1993, p.22), this is understandable as the term is modern (c. 1820s). The first use of the term as previously discussed was 1827, but in the images of one also in earlier posts here reveal that this form was in place by then. While the Kabyles managed to remain autonomous due to their remote and rugged regions, they were still in nominal contact with Ottomans, and I have understood they had strong affinity for the Ottoman yataghan. One of the key factors in the Iflisen form sword we are discussing (flyssa) are the decorations and unique styling. So we know that the Kabyles had some type of sword in the time before 1827, and at that time the form we know as flyssa was evolved. With the Ottoman presence in the 16th c. perhaps versions of their existing swords influenced by yataghans adapted accordingly and into the form we recognize. Attached Images

15th October 2012, 04:50 PM	#1
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Dear Emanuel, thanks for your friendly words :-) Even I don't speak French, I would be happy if you can send me a copy of Camille Lacoste Dujardin's article on "Sabres Kabyles". My friend Mauro from Italy speak French and together I'm sure we will work it out. My email is wodimi@gmx.de . You're right it would work effective as a short side-arm, no question. Thanks at first and if you have time you can have a look (sure all other member too) under www.africanarms.com . I just started to build up a new page to share my passion with friends with the same virus. Best Wolf

2nd May 2019, 12:21 AM	#3
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Colorado Posts: 91	I am wondering why the description of 1580 is listed as "Dagger of the Kabyles", which is a yatagan, while 1604 is the flissa listed as "gourma, or dagger". Could this have been a mistake on as the tags do not correspond to the descriptions between these two? Has anyone previously noticed this? -Geoff

2nd May 2019, 10:01 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	In the article mentioned above the whole history of flissa is explained: since the arrival of the Ottomans in the 16th c. and the specialization of the iflissen in this industry. Some flissa look like yataghans and others are more thin and North Africans. So the flissa date at least from the 16thc. no mystery to me. No mystery at least after the 16th c. before???

2nd May 2019, 04:26 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	The same thought went through my mind as well - after Ottoman contact the blade form changed to look more yataghan like.