Two Wootz Shamshirs for Comments

[A.alnakkas]

Hey all,

I got these today. Not exactly flashy and all but looks to be real wootz. Top one seems to be Sham wootz while the lower seems to be dark Persian wootz that could use some etching. The bottom one has a wootz crossguard and some strange weld almost like scarf weld but at the spine it looks as if its a discolouration rather then a weld, I'll leave it to more expert comments.


Both swords are Iraqi in use and decoration btw.

[Rick]

Looks like a scarf weld there, Lofty .
Usually this is a weld seen in a wootz to non-wootz blade .
I'm amazed at how clean the line is .

Also, in my totally inexpert opinion; both patterns look kinda loose; like Sham looks .

Pile on folks .

[A.alnakkas]

Yep, it could be sham on the bottom one too, though the 'ricasso' part of the weld seems to be wootz also. Granted my photos are total fail :P will get better ones tommorow.

[Rick]

Looking forward to the pix .
Note my edit .

Not flashy, but I'd give my left ****** to have one of them .

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Rick

Looking forward to the pix .
Note my edit .

Not flashy, but I'd give my left ****** to have one of them .

LOL

Lets see what you going to think about them once I get clearer pictures, the bottom one with the weld thingy is signed; Amal Assad Allah - Ya qadi al Hajat (O fulfiller of needs) but dont think its old Assad Allah work maybe put on it to give it 'prestige' :P

[Rick]

If every Rembrandt were a Rembrandt; right, mate ?

[A.alnakkas]

Well said :-)

Wootz is nice regardless of stamps and marks. But my heart will always want an Arab sabre with a European blade.. There used to be plenty here, always expensive and sells fast :-(

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Rick

Looks like a scarf weld there, Lofty .
Usually this is a weld seen in a wootz to non-wootz blade .
I'm amazed at how clean the line is .

Also, in my totally inexpert opinion; both patterns look kinda loose; like Sham looks .

Pile on folks .

Hi Rick,
Scarf weld for sure.
I believe that the crucible steel manufacturing method often produced a smaller ingot, and the scarf weld process was used to add steel to lengthen the blade?
I've got a rather nice 18thC Tulwar with a heavy rigid Shamshir type blade where there is a similar scarf weld up towards the hilt.
In my admittedly modest experience of this construction technique the scarf weld is always is roughly the same place. I've seen it Wootz to non-wootz/monosteel and wootz to wootz, as it is in my Tulwar.

Lotfy,
These are very nice swords.
Congratulations my friend.

Best
Gene

[ALEX]

Nice shamshirs, Lotfy
but I am not convinced this is scarf weld. It seems like decorative, gold-inlaid incision. Is it the same on other side?

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Nice shamshirs, Lotfy
but I am not convinced this is scarf weld. It seems like decorative, gold-inlaid incision. Is it the same on other side?

Nice observation mate! here are some photos:

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

LOL

...but dont think its old Assad Allah work maybe put on it to give it 'prestige' :P

I agree on both points:-) Both cartuches seem later, and of similar technique. Could they be done recently by the same hand?

[A.alnakkas]

Yep, thats very possible. They came from the same source anyways. Though I think these were done in the last 50 years maybe, maybe more cant be sure though one used to have gold inlay.

[ALEX]

I agree with you, Lotfy

[A.alnakkas]

Alex, do you have such hilts in your collection? I am developing an understanding on Iraqi style, which seems to make the pommel capless but this cant be 100% fact because you can find badawi and Syrian saif there though most move with tribal immigration or trade..

Thanks all btw! for helping and congrats :-)

[Richard Furrer]

Appears to be a lap weld to me (some call it a scarf).
I have one tulwar here I got from Gavin that has a rivet and a lap weld....I liken it to both a belt AND suspenders.

On a single blade I have seen from one to three such welds . Always in wootz to wootz...I have yet to hold one that was wootz to something else (though I have heard they exist). I have seen many many with welded tangs just not all that far from the hilt.
Keep in mind I rarely get out and about.

As an aside...I had a destructive bend test done on such a tulwar blade at a laboratory..it withstood as much deflection and pressure prior to breaking as the next four inches of the blade which had no weld. So, if the weld is sound, there is no loss of strength.

As to why they are done...could be
small ingots being used or
small end cuts of larger ingots or
repairing a broken blade or
????
I have not ever seen contemporary documentation on the subject...which may mean it was not important enough to note.

Ric

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Richard,

Thanks for the info, its really nice to know more about this!

Perhaps the blade was broken and had to be welded but the way the weld is makes me think that perhaps the smith used a more flexible steel for the hilt and ricasso and stiff wootz for the rest?

I would love to one day travel your way and learn all of this :-)

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Richard,

Thanks for the info, its really nice to know more about this!

Perhaps the blade was broken and had to be welded but the way the weld is makes me think that perhaps the smith used a more flexible steel for the hilt and ricasso and stiff wootz for the rest?

I would love to one day travel your way and learn all of this :-)

Hard to say why any particular technique was used on any particular blade, but I have seen enough "non-Museum" quality pieces to say that they were very much into repairing the broken rather than re-making them.

I am not on this list to sell classes or product I forge, but I thank you for your interest. I have benefitted greatly by the combined knowledge of this discussion site.

Ric