Odd or traditional selut for a Donoriko?

VVV · 8th October 2012, 06:59 AM

Yes, it is obvious that the keris hilt does not belong to the dagger either.
But what puzzled me with this case is that these kind of selut upgrades seems to have been around for a century longer than earlier discussed.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2012, 08:17 AM

I guess it just demonstrates how incredibly clever Javanese people are:- takes them almost no time at all to learn what makes a bule jump through the hoops.

But seriously, the entire concept of "mix and match" is one of the major elements of Javanese culture. The essential nature of both culture and society has been the willingness to select individual elements of anything and combine those elements to form something new. Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear.

Seluts have been around for a long time, and they are an easy and a popular way to provide a bit of bling but there is no way that we can consider the gift of the Mangkunegara in the same light as the rubbish that we can see in these other seluts. Personally, I don't find anything about this gift dagger strange at all:- it is something that was prepared specifically to please the boss.

satsujinken · 8th October 2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear.

you describe this one in a very precise word !! I salute you

this is also an eye opener for "bule" or "white man" who tried to delve in world of Javanese keris ...

Javanese will smile at you, will serve you, will show you something they think you might like, but hiding the essentials ...

and I surely believed that you spoke that out based on your own experience ... isn't it right ??

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2012, 12:47 PM

I do have a little bit of experience of Jawa, Donny.

Gustav · 8th October 2012, 06:29 PM

In "Court Arts of Indonesia" on page 163 there is another almost similar dagger (to the one in #9) with Madurese hilt (without selut). The description says:

"The kris was put together around 1880 and belonged to one of the daughters of Pakubuwono IX."

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2012, 10:46 PM

Yes, possibly it did Gustav, in much the same manner that various keris and tombak & etc that I have seen over the years belonged to various people with royal associations. Selling odds and ends, including weaponry, with a royal provenance has been a good way to raise funds for a long time. Perhaps the most famous example of hoodwinkery applied to the eyes of a bule --- or in this case a whole collection of gullible bules --- is the Knaud Keris. This had royal provenance too. Supposedly. My apologies to all:- I'm a skeptic.

Or maybe one of girls decided it looked nicer than the plain old hilts that were normally fitted. Bear in mind the very close ties between Surakarta and Sumenep, and the fact that we're talking about a daughter.

Fact of the matter is that if we look hard enough we can find all sorts of strange variation, not only in weaponry, but in just about everything else to do with Jawa. Ivory Madura hilts are nice, and its easy to understand why somebody would want to fit one to something else, but where we have a specific type of artifact, with an established form, such as is the case with the Mangkunegaraan daggers and with this miniaturised pedang suduk form, a variation from that form, no matter who it is may be associated with, is an anomaly.

I'm not necessarily saying that such an anomaly is a bad thing, and where we are talking about a minor item of dress, or something for an ornament or that has been created in accordance with a personal whim, or for a specific reason --- such as to please a GG --- we do have an example of anomaly, and such anomaly should not be interpreted as an example of a legitimate form. Because it is not.

And as for those seluts --- enough said.

Here's the Surakarta dagger in Court Arts.

8th October 2012, 10:46 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Yes, possibly it did Gustav, in much the same manner that various keris and tombak & etc that I have seen over the years belonged to various people with royal associations. Selling odds and ends, including weaponry, with a royal provenance has been a good way to raise funds for a long time. Perhaps the most famous example of hoodwinkery applied to the eyes of a bule --- or in this case a whole collection of gullible bules --- is the Knaud Keris. This had royal provenance too. Supposedly. My apologies to all:- I'm a skeptic. Or maybe one of girls decided it looked nicer than the plain old hilts that were normally fitted. Bear in mind the very close ties between Surakarta and Sumenep, and the fact that we're talking about a daughter. Fact of the matter is that if we look hard enough we can find all sorts of strange variation, not only in weaponry, but in just about everything else to do with Jawa. Ivory Madura hilts are nice, and its easy to understand why somebody would want to fit one to something else, but where we have a specific type of artifact, with an established form, such as is the case with the Mangkunegaraan daggers and with this miniaturised pedang suduk form, a variation from that form, no matter who it is may be associated with, is an anomaly. I'm not necessarily saying that such an anomaly is a bad thing, and where we are talking about a minor item of dress, or something for an ornament or that has been created in accordance with a personal whim, or for a specific reason --- such as to please a GG --- we do have an example of anomaly, and such anomaly should not be interpreted as an example of a legitimate form. Because it is not. And as for those seluts --- enough said. Here's the Surakarta dagger in Court Arts. Attached Images

8th October 2012, 06:59 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, it is obvious that the keris hilt does not belong to the dagger either. But what puzzled me with this case is that these kind of selut upgrades seems to have been around for a century longer than earlier discussed. Michael

8th October 2012, 08:17 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I guess it just demonstrates how incredibly clever Javanese people are:- takes them almost no time at all to learn what makes a bule jump through the hoops. But seriously, the entire concept of "mix and match" is one of the major elements of Javanese culture. The essential nature of both culture and society has been the willingness to select individual elements of anything and combine those elements to form something new. Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear. Seluts have been around for a long time, and they are an easy and a popular way to provide a bit of bling but there is no way that we can consider the gift of the Mangkunegara in the same light as the rubbish that we can see in these other seluts. Personally, I don't find anything about this gift dagger strange at all:- it is something that was prepared specifically to please the boss.

8th October 2012, 12:47 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I do have a little bit of experience of Jawa, Donny.

8th October 2012, 06:29 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	In "Court Arts of Indonesia" on page 163 there is another almost similar dagger (to the one in #9) with Madurese hilt (without selut). The description says: "The kris was put together around 1880 and belonged to one of the daughters of Pakubuwono IX."