cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

John · 15th September 2005, 02:03 AM

Very well applied Rick, from down under to from up above.

Andrew · 15th September 2005, 02:56 AM

lol.

purwacarita · 23rd September 2005, 04:13 PM

Hi Boedhi. Gurindam is not stories of symbolic language, it is an unspoken unwritten message contained gift. Because of unspoken and unwritten, the message is delivered using symbols in the gift. But I'd love to read how gurindam could be a form of 2 couplets poem in old malayan letter.

Is it like ...
- no keris, no hantus
- no keris, no commitment
- no money, no keris
- ...or no woman, no cry.

???

Well, Boedhi. It is not about who is correct or incorrect but about diversity in the horizon, it does not mean we have to go to the same school to get it right, because we don't.

I have told differently that ganja wulung is not to hide the ambition of the bearer, but to hide the identity of the bearer, because the identity of the bearer is symbolized in the ganja.
The blade itself is a balanced of 3 symbols at sor-soran, it can be balance between heaven, family, communities, etc. and the blade length symbolized 3 stages of human life, childhood, pubescense, maturity. There is another blade that symbolize the 4th stage, oldness, when people start their retirement and some of them opt to choose to withdraw themselves to woods to live as hermits. The tang position closer to gandik symbolizes the bearer to always closer to what the gandik symbolize(CE:certain god). The pamor is read as symbol of commitment, non-pamor is read as peace. The peksi is read altogether with the bowing blade as control of the bearer to stay straight though life is not as wanted. The luk represents orientation to meru, the straight blade represents steady fire. Ganja is the identity of the bearer uplifts sor-soran, symbolizes bearer must uplift and balance between 3 things that symbolized at sor-soran. Sounds like another sun.

I don't think yoni describes esoteric, the recent invention shall be esoteric which decribes yoni. I hope you agree that keris is originally Hindhu weapon (of SEAsia?), and so it is nice to hear what Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, but with all do respects, I think that he would not deepen his knowledge to the original source of Hindhu. Besides, Lingga Yoni, I think, does not concern with unseen and seen things, they are symbols of junction of 2 different energies.

Hi nechesh. The idea, for certain reasons can't be generalized in all actual lives of real people, unless those desperate people honestly admit and say, alright honey, I marry you for your money.

purwacarita · 25th September 2005, 11:13 AM

In addition, Lingga Yoni is a part of philosophy ruabhineda, which says there are always 2 different kind in all things where Lingga Yoni implies only to 2 different kinds which complement each other. In context of keris, I think Lingga Yoni describes the complemental 2 energies within. Some says that the union of Lingga Yoni creates life, perhaps that's why this symbol also used in genital/sex.

nechesh · 25th September 2005, 02:53 PM

Purwacarita, you seem to have a somewhat reversed way of looking at this, but in the end, perhaps we both have a similar understanding.

The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself. The symbol is not used in "sex/genitals" as you suggest.
That is to say that the "map" should not be confused for the "territory". Yoni has had a particular meaning for a very long time. To suddenly change that meaning can be very confusing for proper understanding. Yoni is a symbol, and therefore the "map", or at least a character on the map. You seem to be using the word to embody the thing itself. For me it does not work.

Boedhi Adhitya · 28th September 2005, 07:03 AM

Hi Purwacarita,
I apologize for 'misinterpreting' the gurindam terminology. I heard about gurindam a long time ago somewhere in my elementary/junior high school. http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sastra_Melayu confirm me that it is a form of old malay poet, the famous one is 'Gurindam Dua Belas' by Raja Ali Haji from Riau, Sumatera (1865). A good reading.
I believe, having the same understanding / interpretation on the words being used in communication (oral or written) would be very important. Thus, I accept the definiton of Gurindam as 'an unspoken unwritten message contained gift' exclusively when I'm reading your post. My Javanese neighbours seems confused when I asked them about gurindam

Perhaps I'm asking the wrong men. Balinese would be more approriate, perhaps ?
Yoni or esoteric or tuah, wheter it is genital or not, fertility or birth, doesn't matter for such an ignorant people like me, as long as it has (in my humble opinion only) 'almost' the same meaning, that is, in this contex, 'the unseen/symbolic/energy' or what ever, but not something we can touch physically with our bare hand, like the blade itself.

I agree with you, that it is not about correct or incorrect, right or wrong. Keris cultures are fulfilled with many different customs/believe from many ethnic groups, islands and nation. Some kerises that are considered 'bad' and unprefered in certain group might be the most sought-after by others. Arbitrating this two different point-of-view would be the best 'cultural tips' for any keris dealers

And certainly, we shouldn't go to the same school. We might choose Harvard, MIT, or Leiden University. But for now, I choose Mix Martial Art school

In the end, keris is a very subjective matters. Every keris lovers would have their own motivation on collecting kerises and have their own 'interpretation' about his keris(-es), and surely nothing wrong with it. But please remember, this should be kept as 'private domain'. Insisting our own interpretation to the 'public domain' would only result in disastrous discussion. On this subject, I quote Serat Centhini for "Javanese taste" cultural tips : "Poma Wekasingsun, lamun ana ingkang nyulayani, atuten kemawon, gerejegan tan ana perlune, becik ngalah ing basa sethitik, malah oleh bathi, tur nora kemruwuk.." (Serat Centhini, Vol. 2) which might mean "Remember my words, if someone argue on you (about keris), just follow his opinions, uneeded arguing better be avoided. It is much better to just comply with his words, then you may get advantages, and not clamorous.."

Last but not least, thank you for your another suns. It really makes my day brighter

best regards,

boedhi adhitya

marto suwignyo · 28th September 2005, 10:34 AM

Pak Boedi, your remarks on the difficulty you were having with Purwacarita`s use of the word "gurindam" make me very relieved. I have been thinking that perhaps I was the only one who could not reconcile the word as used by Purwacarita, with the meaning of the word as I understand it.

The reason your Javanese friends are looking blank when you ask them about the word is that it is not, to the best of my knowledge, a Javanese word . I think it may have a literary usage somewhere, but it is certain that it is never going to be heard in a conversational context in either Indonesian or Javanese.

My understanding of the word was as a you put it, but when I looked in a dictionary I found that it also means:- "an aphorism in two lines". "Aphorism" I understand to mean a short, very expressive observation.

I think I agree with you, that Purwacarita has given the word "gurindam" a particular meaning that does not appear to agree with the generally understood meaning of the word, so when he uses it we had best bear in mind the meaning he is attempting to convey with this word.

As for the use of the word "yoni", not very long ago I seem to recall explaining the use of this word. I accept that the use of language can change and words can at different times convey different meanings, but this continual fixation on "yoni" in a sexual context seems to me to be just a little extreme.

Pak Purwacarita, could you oblige an ignorant old man by telling us a little about the philosophy of "ruabhineda"?

I am unfamiliar with this word, and it seems, from what you have already said, that I really show know something about it. Perhaps senile decay is setting in a little earlier than I would wish.

I must admit, I am finding your unique views on keris related matters to be fascinating reading.

purwacarita · 28th September 2005, 12:20 PM

Hi Boedhi. You don't need to apologize,

I'm open to accept definition/understanding of others. I hope you don't think of me as arguing your post because it only speaks of my understanding of a little piece of Bali view, which you imply your view to nechesh as mine. Thanx for the link, I guess my gurindam is not what Malayan said afterall.

...And with respect to Serat Centini and so, ...bla bla bla, I won't follow wrong opinions, I won't argue it either, ...but I'll post what I think is right (though possibly it is wrong). Right or wrong, it is still my country, but when it's wrong, I won't be ignorant not to tell what I think is right albeit the decision is not mine. I'll decide only for me.

Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that.

In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time.

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

25th September 2005, 02:53 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Purwacarita, you seem to have a somewhat reversed way of looking at this, but in the end, perhaps we both have a similar understanding. The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself. The symbol is not used in "sex/genitals" as you suggest. That is to say that the "map" should not be confused for the "territory". Yoni has had a particular meaning for a very long time. To suddenly change that meaning can be very confusing for proper understanding. Yoni is a symbol, and therefore the "map", or at least a character on the map. You seem to be using the word to embody the thing itself. For me it does not work. Last edited by nechesh; 26th September 2005 at 01:19 AM. Reason: added information

28th September 2005, 07:03 AM	#6
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Hi Purwacarita, I apologize for 'misinterpreting' the gurindam terminology. I heard about gurindam a long time ago somewhere in my elementary/junior high school. http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sastra_Melayu confirm me that it is a form of old malay poet, the famous one is 'Gurindam Dua Belas' by Raja Ali Haji from Riau, Sumatera (1865). A good reading. I believe, having the same understanding / interpretation on the words being used in communication (oral or written) would be very important. Thus, I accept the definiton of Gurindam as 'an unspoken unwritten message contained gift' exclusively when I'm reading your post. My Javanese neighbours seems confused when I asked them about gurindam Perhaps I'm asking the wrong men. Balinese would be more approriate, perhaps ? Yoni or esoteric or tuah, wheter it is genital or not, fertility or birth, doesn't matter for such an ignorant people like me, as long as it has (in my humble opinion only) 'almost' the same meaning, that is, in this contex, 'the unseen/symbolic/energy' or what ever, but not something we can touch physically with our bare hand, like the blade itself. I agree with you, that it is not about correct or incorrect, right or wrong. Keris cultures are fulfilled with many different customs/believe from many ethnic groups, islands and nation. Some kerises that are considered 'bad' and unprefered in certain group might be the most sought-after by others. Arbitrating this two different point-of-view would be the best 'cultural tips' for any keris dealers And certainly, we shouldn't go to the same school. We might choose Harvard, MIT, or Leiden University. But for now, I choose Mix Martial Art school In the end, keris is a very subjective matters. Every keris lovers would have their own motivation on collecting kerises and have their own 'interpretation' about his keris(-es), and surely nothing wrong with it. But please remember, this should be kept as 'private domain'. Insisting our own interpretation to the 'public domain' would only result in disastrous discussion. On this subject, I quote Serat Centhini for "Javanese taste" cultural tips : "Poma Wekasingsun, lamun ana ingkang nyulayani, atuten kemawon, gerejegan tan ana perlune, becik ngalah ing basa sethitik, malah oleh bathi, tur nora kemruwuk.." (Serat Centhini, Vol. 2) which might mean "Remember my words, if someone argue on you (about keris), just follow his opinions, uneeded arguing better be avoided. It is much better to just comply with his words, then you may get advantages, and not clamorous.." Last but not least, thank you for your another suns. It really makes my day brighter best regards, boedhi adhitya Last edited by Boedhi Adhitya; 28th September 2005 at 07:14 AM.

15th September 2005, 02:03 AM	#1
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Very well applied Rick, from down under to from up above.

15th September 2005, 02:56 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	lol.

23rd September 2005, 04:13 PM	#3
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Boedhi. Gurindam is not stories of symbolic language, it is an unspoken unwritten message contained gift. Because of unspoken and unwritten, the message is delivered using symbols in the gift. But I'd love to read how gurindam could be a form of 2 couplets poem in old malayan letter. Is it like ... - no keris, no hantus - no keris, no commitment - no money, no keris - ...or no woman, no cry. ??? Well, Boedhi. It is not about who is correct or incorrect but about diversity in the horizon, it does not mean we have to go to the same school to get it right, because we don't. I have told differently that ganja wulung is not to hide the ambition of the bearer, but to hide the identity of the bearer, because the identity of the bearer is symbolized in the ganja. The blade itself is a balanced of 3 symbols at sor-soran, it can be balance between heaven, family, communities, etc. and the blade length symbolized 3 stages of human life, childhood, pubescense, maturity. There is another blade that symbolize the 4th stage, oldness, when people start their retirement and some of them opt to choose to withdraw themselves to woods to live as hermits. The tang position closer to gandik symbolizes the bearer to always closer to what the gandik symbolize(CE:certain god). The pamor is read as symbol of commitment, non-pamor is read as peace. The peksi is read altogether with the bowing blade as control of the bearer to stay straight though life is not as wanted. The luk represents orientation to meru, the straight blade represents steady fire. Ganja is the identity of the bearer uplifts sor-soran, symbolizes bearer must uplift and balance between 3 things that symbolized at sor-soran. Sounds like another sun. I don't think yoni describes esoteric, the recent invention shall be esoteric which decribes yoni. I hope you agree that keris is originally Hindhu weapon (of SEAsia?), and so it is nice to hear what Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, but with all do respects, I think that he would not deepen his knowledge to the original source of Hindhu. Besides, Lingga Yoni, I think, does not concern with unseen and seen things, they are symbols of junction of 2 different energies. Hi nechesh. The idea, for certain reasons can't be generalized in all actual lives of real people, unless those desperate people honestly admit and say, alright honey, I marry you for your money.

25th September 2005, 11:13 AM	#4
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	In addition, Lingga Yoni is a part of philosophy ruabhineda, which says there are always 2 different kind in all things where Lingga Yoni implies only to 2 different kinds which complement each other. In context of keris, I think Lingga Yoni describes the complemental 2 energies within. Some says that the union of Lingga Yoni creates life, perhaps that's why this symbol also used in genital/sex.

28th September 2005, 10:34 AM	#7
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Pak Boedi, your remarks on the difficulty you were having with Purwacarita`s use of the word "gurindam" make me very relieved. I have been thinking that perhaps I was the only one who could not reconcile the word as used by Purwacarita, with the meaning of the word as I understand it. The reason your Javanese friends are looking blank when you ask them about the word is that it is not, to the best of my knowledge, a Javanese word . I think it may have a literary usage somewhere, but it is certain that it is never going to be heard in a conversational context in either Indonesian or Javanese. My understanding of the word was as a you put it, but when I looked in a dictionary I found that it also means:- "an aphorism in two lines". "Aphorism" I understand to mean a short, very expressive observation. I think I agree with you, that Purwacarita has given the word "gurindam" a particular meaning that does not appear to agree with the generally understood meaning of the word, so when he uses it we had best bear in mind the meaning he is attempting to convey with this word. As for the use of the word "yoni", not very long ago I seem to recall explaining the use of this word. I accept that the use of language can change and words can at different times convey different meanings, but this continual fixation on "yoni" in a sexual context seems to me to be just a little extreme. Pak Purwacarita, could you oblige an ignorant old man by telling us a little about the philosophy of "ruabhineda"? I am unfamiliar with this word, and it seems, from what you have already said, that I really show know something about it. Perhaps senile decay is setting in a little earlier than I would wish. I must admit, I am finding your unique views on keris related matters to be fascinating reading.

28th September 2005, 12:20 PM	#8
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Boedhi. You don't need to apologize, I'm open to accept definition/understanding of others. I hope you don't think of me as arguing your post because it only speaks of my understanding of a little piece of Bali view, which you imply your view to nechesh as mine. Thanx for the link, I guess my gurindam is not what Malayan said afterall. ...And with respect to Serat Centini and so, ...bla bla bla, I won't follow wrong opinions, I won't argue it either, ...but I'll post what I think is right (though possibly it is wrong). Right or wrong, it is still my country, but when it's wrong, I won't be ignorant not to tell what I think is right albeit the decision is not mine. I'll decide only for me. Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time. Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it? ~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.