Help wanted Identification of Katars

[B.I]

the dotted inscriptions are thought to be inventory or shelf marks. this is a loose description, but it has been debated and no better 'guess' has been offered. they are from the bikaner armoury, as others have stated and thought to have been put onto the contents of the armoury at some point in the 19thC.
there is an account from the armourer of bikaner in 1900, discussing the potential origins of some of the pieces and the placement of there marks could have hailed from this time (as it was hinted that this armourer had gone through the collection. either way, the 19thC date comes from the fact that certain 19thC pieces hold the same type of marking, as well has 16thC pieces in the same armoury. the marks were put onto all pieces, whether made in the region or captured at some point in the armouries history. some pieces (like some of your daggers) held more than one set of marks, and some had up to 4. again, this has fed the 'shelf mark' theory, in that when moved, an additional set of marks were put on. personally, i feel this is little thin, but i am happy to believe they are inventory marks of some kind. they cannot be armourers marks (which has been agreed, no matter what else is debated) as these marks were put alongside armourers marks, and were normally poorly done. also, they were put onto pieces that were many hundreds of miles apart in origin, and upto 400 years apart in date.
the marks are normally numbers, and many (maybe even a majority) were preceded with a 'symbol' that was neither a number nor a letter. i have attached a compliation of this symbol found in the pieces on this particular post.
what this symbol is i dont know, but hope to find out at some point in my lifetime. i have been pursuing it for a number of years and have only heard specualtion. the armoury itself (now a series of museums) cant offer any more information. an interesting point is that there did exist a written inventory, which was seen a number fo years ago. this ledger may hold clues, but i'm afraid it will never be seen again, being condemning evidence against the hoard of pieces going missing some 10 years ago (and ultimately ending up in your brothers collection).

the numbers itself could be a number of different languages, but the presence of other dotted inscriptions (other than numbers and this symbol) show the language to be a strange for of devanagri, although different enough to be a possible language in itself.
i have had aome of these longer inscription read, but with no satifactory results.
the problem is that devenagri is a written language only, and whatever form of it this is, seems to have been forgotten many years ago.

inscriptions aside, look again to the very large katar your brother has. the grip bars seem a little mishapen.
this is because they could possibly have been chisselled elephant heads (one on either side - 4 in total) which was a feature shown in some other pieces from the same armoury. yours are very worn, as are the facets of the grip bars but i'm sure this was the original feature.

[Andrew]

Excellent post, Brian. Thank you.



Rob, a great wealth of information resides in this forum and its archives. The membership here has a broad base of experience from collecting to research.

However, the study of ethnographic weaponry is often a rather esoteric and exotic pursuit. Poor documentation, extravagent and incredible provenance, colonialistic perspective and language barriers all contribute to the unanswered questions. It was this very lack of reliable information that first attracted me to ethnographic weapons and continues to keep me engaged and intellectually stimulated. While such things as militaria and nihonto have always fascinated me, there are few "mysteries" left to explore in those areas.

These forums are often a good starting place for research and investigation, as well as a place to share knowlege, experience and speculation. I once described the process as "edged weapon free-association" (or something similar). I truly hope you'll stick around and share more with us, despite your obvious disappointment. You may yet find the answers to your questions, or even to questions you've not yet thought of.

Best,
Andrew

[geneacom]

Ridk, Spiral, B.I. and Andrew, thank you very much for your support!
Your very interesting explanations are helping me to better understand the problems.
Since I am completely new and uneducated to this matter, I have learned a lot since I joined this forum.
You reply is giving me the necessary push to go on.
I will start publishing new pictures tonight.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for showing the katars, but as you can see from the different mails, last from Brian’s excellent answer; it is very difficult, if not impossible, at the moment, to come up with something specific about the translation. What we can conclude is, that the katars shown, most likely, have been at the Bikaner armoury at one point or another, but not necessarily were ‘born’ there. If you have read a few books on the Indian history, you will know, that wars were going on all the time, from east to west, and from north to south. Big armies moving around the country all the time, weapons getting mixed, and remixed before they ended in an armoury somewhere, and maybe years later ending up in another armoury after a lost battle.

The thing of interest will therefore be, does the katar fit into the area where the armoury is, or is it likely to be from another area?

As your brother has been collecting for twenty years, I guess that he is likely to have some answers to this.

If you post any more pictures, please help us to a better understanding, by keeping the pictures of the whole weapon and the details together. I have no doubt that you and your brother have no problem seeing the pictures, but it will make it easier for the rest of us who don’t know the weapons.

Jens

[geneacom]

Every day I learn more and more, thanks for all your support and kind help.

Here is the last katar for now.

I have to make new photos next week.
Actually, I started to make pictures only from the 3 katars with text on it plus 2 katars which I like very much (the small one with the ivory knobs and the largest one I could find in my brothers collection).

Enjoy and I'll be back ...

[geneacom]

I found a table with the figures 0-9 in different languages.
Maybe this will help? It is an Acrobat PDF-file.