Shamshir information needed

[Dom]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

the text on the spine is Arabic, most likely from the holy Qur'an, Lutfy or DOM could help with that

yes, we are working on, it is indeed a Koranic text,
and by the way, we'll have a look about the 2 small cartouches
but short mentions, issued from a huge book as well as the Holy Quran
it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, but might be ... Inch'Allah

nevertheless, I noticed several coats of arms on scabbard fittings
it's not too much my field ... but there is something to dig ... there

à +

Dom

[VANDERNOTTE]

Hello everyone;

these are the rest of the pictures. I thank all of you for the information given and the effort to decipher the insciptions.

Following AJ1356 directions, I will give it away to the Salvation Army if the inscription can't be translated.

Jacques

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Dom

nevertheless, I noticed several coats of arms on scabbard fittings
it's not too much my field ... but there is something to dig ... there

Dom

Indeed.

For those who may not have noticed, the suspension rings appear to be a variation of the sepent swallowing their own tails;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

An awesome sabre of outstanding quality and value that would be the highlight of anyones collection, one you should be very proud to own, I know I would.

I must add, from your description, you have done a very fine job of restoring it too.

Thank you for bringing such a fine and interesting sword to the table.

Gav

[AJ1356]

Jaques,
You don't have to give it to the Salvation Army, You can always send it to me.
The text is quite interesting. On the last picture the text is not complete, so a petter picture would help, also any other text that has not been translated take pics of it and I'll take care of it.
Here is what we got from now.
این شمشیر یادکار سرکار بلند اقتدار میر مراد علی خان تالپر والی ملک سند بجهته عالیجاه جیمس برنس صاحب بجهته اخوی ارجمند الکسندر برنس صاحب بدیدارت
سرکار میر مراد علی خان تالپر مدد یا علی علیه السلام

So basically this was sort of a gift from one guy to this other guy's brother. Trans { This shamshir is a "gift" (it say a memory from) high powered overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Governor of Sindh (which is now the pakistani and indian panjabs) for High placed sir James Burns for his dear brother sir Alexander Burns} "Till we meet" <---- not exact trans but close enough that is why I put it in qoutations. I used lowered case S for Sir, because the person may not have been knighted but the word Saaheb is used in that manner.
Overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Help O Ali Alaih e Salaam
I used overseer because it is the direct translation for the word Sarkaar, but It used to be a title as well mainly from those of high station in government. The guy is the governor, of a what was one of British India major provences.


So this could shadder the whole idea of the hilt being a later addition, the hilt and the fittings could have been made at the time the blade was made. Also it shadder the 1600's time frame I offered.

[AJ1356]

The Arabic Text from the spine,

قاتلوا الذین لا یومنون با لله و لا بالیوم الآخر و لا یحرمون ما حرم الله و رسوله و لا یدینون دین الحق

The native Arabs can correct my limited Arabic but here is a try,

Kill this that don't believe in God and the Last Day( day of judgement) and don't respect? the Sanctuary of God and his Messenger and ....... the right religion.

[AJ1356]

First picture in the post,
تا حیاتت این تیغ نامدار
بر میانت از برادر یادگار
Till your life this "famous" blade
Would remain a memory from (your) brother

گر یار در جنگ یزدان بود
----------- چندان بود
If God is your friend in Combat
hidden behind the hand guard) would be many

Get me the pther pictures I asked, there is a mention of Alexamder the Mecedonian and The fountain of Life.

[VANDERNOTTE]

I would like to thank once again everybody for your help and specially AJ1356 for the translations! It gives me a new perspeftive about the blade and its origins.

It´s possible that the blade arrived to this side of the world during Independence of Peru. Some french and english were fighting for independence causes, between 1821 and 1824.

Jacques

[Richard G]

Just a small correction to AJ1356's post no.17. Sindh is a separate province, south of the Punjab. It's capital is Karachi.
It was taken by Sir Charles Napier for the E.I.C. in 1843. The family name of the defeated Amirs of Scinde was Talpeer.
Alexander Burnes was an explorer who travelled up the Indus and through the Himalayas to Bukhara and Persia, writing a memoir of his travels. He was appointed by the E.I.C. to Scinde as political agent. He was then sent to Kabul(Afghanistan) to help establish Shah Shuja as a pro British ruler. He was assasinated during an insurrection in 1841 which precipitated the evacuation of the E.I.C. contingent from Kabul. Of 17,000, only 40 managed to get back across the Khyber pass.
So, not only a beautiful sword, but also one of historic significance.
Regards
Richard
PS Alexander Burns was apparently none as "Sekundar" Burnes which may explain the refernce to Alexander the Great.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

It´s possible that the blade arrived to this side of the world during Independence of Peru. Some french and english were fighting for independence causes, between 1821 and 1824.

Hi Jacques
I have recognized the "patte" of French furbisher of the Empire time on the handle

à +

Dom

[spiral]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Jaques,
You don't have to give it to the Salvation Army, You can always send it to me.
The text is quite interesting. On the last picture the text is not complete, so a petter picture would help, also any other text that has not been translated take pics of it and I'll take care of it.
Here is what we got from now.
این شمشیر یادکار سرکار بلند اقتدار میر مراد علی خان تالپر والی ملک سند بجهته عالیجاه جیمس برنس صاحب بجهته اخوی ارجمند الکسندر برنس صاحب بدیدارت
سرکار میر مراد علی خان تالپر مدد یا علی علیه السلام

So basically this was sort of a gift from one guy to this other guy's brother. Trans { This shamshir is a "gift" (it say a memory from) high powered overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Governor of Sindh (which is now the pakistani and indian panjabs) for High placed sir James Burns for his dear brother sir Alexander Burns} "Till we meet" <---- not exact trans but close enough that is why I put it in qoutations. I used lowered case S for Sir, because the person may not have been knighted but the word Saaheb is used in that manner.
Overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Help O Ali Alaih e Salaam
I used overseer because it is the direct translation for the word Sarkaar, but It used to be a title as well mainly from those of high station in government. The guy is the governor, of a what was one of British India major provences.


So this could shadder the whole idea of the hilt being a later addition, the hilt and the fittings could have been made at the time the blade was made. Also it shadder the 1600's time frame I offered.

Nice find. mmm... From, wiki....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Burnes

spiral

Alexander Burns.

His proposal in 1829 to undertake a journey of exploration through the valley of the Indus River was not carried out for political reasons; but in 1831 he was sent to Lahore with a present of horses from King William IV to Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The British claimed that the horses would not survive the overland journey, so they were allowed to transport the horses up the Indus and used the opportunity to secretly survey the river. In the following years, in company with Mohan Lal, his travels continued through Afghanistan across the Hindu Kush to Bukhara (in what is modern Uzbekistan) and Persia.

The narrative which he published on his visit to England in 1834 added immensely to contemporary knowledge of these countries, and was one of the most popular books of the time. The first edition earned the author £800, and his services were recognized not only by the Royal Geographical Society of London, but also by that of Paris. He was also elected a Fellow of the Royal Society the same year. [3] Soon after his return to India in 1835 he was appointed to the court of Sindh to secure a treaty for the navigation of the Indus and in 1836 he undertook a political mission to Dost Mahommed Khan at Kabul.

[T. Koch]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Indeed.

For those who may not have noticed, the suspension rings appear to be a variation of the sepent swallowing their own tails;
Gav

Nicely spotted freebooter, it is an ourobos indeed! Wouldn't this go against the decorations being Islamic? AFAIK in Islam (and other Abrahamic religions btw.) the serpent is Iblis forever crawling on his belly, no? Putting the great shaitan on the fittings of a sword would go against the intention of the inscriptions on the blades I would think?

Thank you all for contributing to this thread. I've said it before, but will gladly say it again, your experience and knowledge is truly humbling gentlemen! Thanks so much also to you Vandernotte for presenting this awesome sword! I enjoy so tremendously learning about weapons here also thoe that don't fall directly under my own area of interest.


Best wishes, - Thor

[VANDERNOTTE]

my pleasure thor
jacques

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Dom

yes, we are working on, it is indeed a Koranic text,
and by the way, we'll have a look about the 2 small cartouches
but short mentions, issued from a huge book as well as the Holy Quran
it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, but might be ... Inch'Allah

Hi
as committed, we found in Holy Quran, the corresponding passages
for the sentence on spine
extracted from Holy Quran - Surat n°9 - AT-TAWBAH
part of the verse 29
FIGHT THOSE WHO BELEIVE NOT IN ALLAH NOR THE LAST DAY,
NOR FORBID THAT WHICH ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE FORBIDDEN,
AND WHO DO NOT PROFESS THE RELIGION OF TRUE


for the two (2) small "cartouches"
extracted from Holy Quran - Surat n°3 - AL-IMRAN
part of the verse 103
HE JOINED YOUR HEARTS TOGETHER, SO THAT, BY HIS GRACE, YOU BECAME BRETHREN

everything comes to he who waits

all the best

à +

Dom

[Andreas]

Hello to all.
I am new to this truly exceptional forum and this is my first post, so please forgive me if I do something wrong inadvertently. I hope the following is of some help.
I think I have identified two of the coats of arms on the suspension bands.
In the photo showing the second pair of bands, the one on the left appears to be a variation of the Glegg family arms (and Sir James and Sir Alexander Burnes’ mother’s maiden name was Elizabeth Glegg). The other shield bears the arms of a Holland (also spelled Hoyland) family. A James Holland married in India a sister of the Burnes brothers, but why his arms should appear on the bands…
I wasn’t able to identify the other pair. Perhaps an enquiry to the Scottish and English Heraldry Colleges (respectively The Court of the Lord Lyon and The College of Arms) might help. As to how the sword found its way to Peru, it should be noted that a nephew, Ernest Burnes Whish, immigrated to South America, probably in the late 1860’s or early 70’s.
If I may, I would recommend to those interested in the historical period concerned, to read Sir Alexander’s fascinating memoirs Cabool: being a personal narrative of a journey to, and residence in that city in the years 1836, 7, and 8, (http://books.google.gr/books/about/C...AJ&redir_esc=y) and also, in a lighter vein, George MacDonald Fraser’s novel Flashman, which is set at the time of the First Anglo-Afghan War and in which Sir Alexander is vividly portrayed.
Envious congratulations on a piece with such a historical background.
Regards,
Andreas

[Richard G]

"but why his arms should appear on the bands… "

Maybe it was as simple as just needing to find four coats of arms to maintain the symmetry of the design.

Anyway, Christies seem popular. so here's another one (sorry, I can only do links)
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/l...ID=54470031002

The "British envoy" referred to was, I believe Sir Alexander Burnes.

Lastly, Mir Murad Ali Khan remained loyal to the British (and them to him), even during The Mutiny of 1857, remaining Amir of Khaipur until his death in 1894.
Regards
Richard

[VANDERNOTTE]

andrea
thank very much for the compliment and your interest
i try to look for burnes family in peru
regard
jacques