Indo Persian Helmet--top missing?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Namaste Ibrahiim,

Can you see any oxidisation in the recesses that would suggest an age of 100+ years? Like around the plume holders or nasal guard bracket? Looks like a little around the top boss, but again, not much and no signs of cleaning and the continual processes of care that an antique would have.
The only rust I can see on it looks relatively 'new'.
Sometimes these have a 'nut' brazed or welded under the top boss and the spike screws into it.
If it has a long traditional style spike (say 3-inches or so) you can then ship them with the spike removed. That means a smaller box, cheaper shipping, less chance of it sticking through the packaging and causing a problem en-route etc.
Might be an idea for Naborrow to peek into the hole with a torch and have a look.
Once we can see inside the helmet if there is no lining we should be able to see more.
I'm not 100% saying it's modern, but it does have that appearance at the moment.
More pictures will tell the whole story.

Salaams Atlantia ~ Your point about visible deterioration is accepted.. on the later picture I see some wear and general oxidation to the whole piece but I cant say how old it is precisely...The bracket I have it in is between 1900 and 1930 perhaps the back end of the Qajar period say 1920 though you may be more accurate with a later date. Trouble is we dont know what conditions it has been kept under... though the apparent history stated was early 20th C ... 1906 or that was when the family was in India from whom it was obtained.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

Good evening everybody
I do not consider myself an expert, but the Indo-Persian helmets (Kulah Khud)
I have long analyzed for acquiring one "in fine" (Qajar)

I noticed no less than 3 points, to conclude that it is a Indian helmet from 20th century,
as well as AJ1356 had mentioned

- all the decor is, floral and animal, not a single mention in Arabic,
no talismanic or religious evocations, so it wasn't for a Muslim

- the sliding nose guard, does not have a system for adjusting position,
no screw as well as, all protects the sliding nose guard, are provided,
I mean for the Persian helmets

- I have a serious doubt about a "broken spike",
it's "IMPOSSIBLE", without to create a damage to the top bulb ,
to broke the spike, this bulb is typically Indian, not at all Persian
might be was a system to remove it for such circumstances ?
or the spike attach system was very weak ?
there is something very strange anyway ...

for comparison, here are some pictures, of a Qajar helmet from 18th/19th century
easy to obtain more pics, this helmet it's mine

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~ Your point about visible deterioration is accepted.. on the later picture I see some wear and general oxidation to the whole piece but I cant say how old it is precisely...The bracket I have it in is between 1900 and 1930 perhaps the back end of the Qajar period say 1920 though you may be more accurate with a later date. Trouble is we dont know what conditions it has been kept under... though the apparent history stated was early 20th C ... 1906 or that was when the family was in India from whom it was obtained.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hola Ibrahiim,

We need Naborow to snap some more shots to completely put this to rest. My gut says modern, but I hate being the bearer of bad tidings without concrete proof so I hope I'm wrong.
I would like to see clear daylight pictures of:
Inside the helmet. Close-up on the top of the inside of the bowl.
Close-ups of the chainmail.
The nasal guard bracket.
The area under the nasal bar that cannot be cleaned.
And a description of what is inside the top spike boss.
A measurement of the riveted links daimeter (if they are riveted)

Best
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hola Ibrahiim,

We need Naborow to snap some more shots to completely put this to rest. My gut says modern, but I hate being the bearer of bad tidings without concrete proof so I hope I'm wrong.
I would like to see clear daylight pictures of:
Inside the helmet. Close-up on the top of the inside of the bowl.
Close-ups of the chainmail.
The nasal guard bracket.
The area under the nasal bar that cannot be cleaned.
And a description of what is inside the top spike boss.
A measurement of the riveted links daimeter (if they are riveted)

Best
Gene

Salaams Atlantia ~ Whilst I am flip flopping somewhat on the date ~ actually I shouldnt be comparing it at all with Persian as Dom quite correctly points out this is not a Muslim but Indian Hindu item ... I should be comparing it with other Indian examples. I have no reason to disbelieve the owner about the provenance and that as I originally put was about 1900 or thereabouts. You are right about the kola kuds condition ... It looks like it never got cleaned which some collectors adhere to but some prefer to clean up... after all, as a parade item it would have been clean for that purpose as is the nice helmet shown by Dom.. I would suggest a light wash/very light scrub with a soft brush in warm soapy water to remove the basic oxide that I think covers the entire project item... which will bring up the silver as well... and without losing any gold Koftgari .... I think this will help with the patina ... The inclusion of the elephants and Lions always indicates India especially with no Islamic inscription or geometry...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~ Whilst I am flip flopping somewhat on the date ~ actually I shouldnt be comparing it at all with Persian as Dom quite correctly points out this is not a Muslim but Indian Hindu item ... I should be comparing it with other Indian examples. I have no reason to disbelieve the owner about the provenance and that as I originally put was about 1900 or thereabouts. You are right about the kola kuds condition ... It looks like it never got cleaned which some collectors adhere to but some prefer to clean up... after all, as a parade item it would have been clean for that purpose as is the nice helmet shown by Dom.. I would suggest a light wash/very light scrub with a soft brush in warm soapy water to remove the basic oxide that I think covers the entire project item... which will bring up the silver as well... and without losing any gold Koftgari .... I think this will help with the patina ... The inclusion of the elephants and Lions always indicates India especially with no Islamic inscription or geometry...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hola Ibrahiim,

As I said in post #6, It's very much like the 'better' pieces coming out of India at the moment often being sold as 'antique'.
I assumed people would realise I was saying it's Indian as Alex noted in post #7.

I can see the pictures Naborow has added in #13 now. they weren't showing last night for me, don't know why?
It does look to have some age on the inside, but that patina doesn't match the concealed areas of the outside, I must admit I'm on the fence about it as well.


Naborow, can you see anything inside the hole where the spike would have been?
Is there a hole in the bracket for the nasal guard?

[naborow]

I don't know what you mean by coming out of India recently, but we personally have had it sitting around in a box with the other stuff for about 20 years.

the hole at the top is about 1 1/2 cm deep and 1/2 cm wide. Its interior is oxidized and crusty. there is a 1/2 cm deep tube which appears to have some threads.

based on the pictures on internet of 1903 Delhi durbar, I think there was no spike, as all of the photos and paintings of the procession show plumes.

[trajan]

Just saw this thread--I have a nearly identical hemet with intact spike. mine came from the estate of a doctor who according to the family, brought back a bunch of stuff when he travelled india prior to WWI.

links are not riveted.

Here are pics.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by trajan

Just saw this thread--I have a nearly identical hemet with intact spike. mine came from the estate of a doctor who according to the family, brought back a bunch of stuff when he travelled india prior to WWI.

links are not riveted.

Here are pics.

Salaams Trajan I think you have it nailed! Or spiked!!
Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by naborow

I don't know what you mean by coming out of India recently, but we personally have had it sitting around in a box with the other stuff for about 20 years....

It all depends on individual assessment of antique. In terms of antique weapons collecting, 20 years is new/modern, 50 years is recent. some collectors would consider 100 years recent:-) again, it all depends on what you collect and what level you do it at.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by naborow

I don't know what you mean by coming out of India recently, but we personally have had it sitting around in a box with the other stuff for about 20 years.

the hole at the top is about 1 1/2 cm deep and 1/2 cm wide. Its interior is oxidized and crusty. there is a 1/2 cm deep tube which appears to have some threads.

based on the pictures on internet of 1903 Delhi durbar, I think there was no spike, as all of the photos and paintings of the procession show plumes.

I don't know that I can phrase it any more clearly.
It's very much like the 'better' pieces coming out of India at the moment often being sold as 'antique'.
In other words, there are 'similar' helmets being made now in India and being sold as antique.

It looks to be very similar to the example shown by Trajan.
So we've got two apparently 100+ year old helmets which appear to be from the same workshop, both with perfect gold koftgari with no discernable wear.

Trajan's has butted chainmail. Your's has riveted chainmail connected with butted links (can you confirm that?).
This would mean that any strike against the chainmail would rip these weaker links and pull the skirt away from the bowl.

The thread that you can see inside the top spike boss will probobly be a nut which will have been brazed to the top of the bowl. There would have been a spike that screwed into it.
Try some long bolts to get the thread size then it's a really easy job to remake it and you'll know what size thread to cut onto the end.

As for dating it
In any event it's a nice thing which is well made and will display very well.

[trajan]

I look at it like all the ceremonial qajar period axes with silver koftgari--made exactly like older fighting types but ceremonial, made for display, and in alot of cases sold to rich turn of the century tourists.

the wootz tulwar, armor, and other odds and ends purchased were much older i look at it as an antique ceremonial piece--never was used so no wear.