cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

nechesh · 12th September 2005, 03:22 PM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for your clear and concise explanations. As usual you have shed some light on a very complex subject. And thank you for the definitions as well.

Your words make a lot of sense to me.
Purwacarita, it seems to me that the man making his keris cut grass for the TV cameras is more likely using slight-of-hand or some other stage magic technique than the more esorteric explanation that he has mastered some prana energy.

He is most probably a chalatan, not a holy man. IMO dogs can be made to do "tricks", but keris should not.

I am curious about your use of the terms Yoni and Lingam (lingga). These are Hindu terms of Sanskrit origin with rather particular meaning. They refer specifically to the venerated symbols of the female (goddess) and male (god, specifically Siva) genitialia as it applies to the Hindu religion. From what source are you making your adaptations of these concepts to the keris? I am not saying one way or another is i believe this application is correct, but i would be interested to know what you base it on. I do find the use of the term Yoni to mean "esorteric" a bit vague.

purwacarita · 13th September 2005, 06:41 AM

Hi nechesh. I don't think it was a stage magic technique as it was performed in kraton Surakarta, but I don't care if the guy in the show had mastered the prana or not, nor if he was a magician. The show was intended to be understood as soul inhabited keris and it is very convincing for those who does not understand. I meant to say that the show was not soul inhabited keris and disprove any supertitious belief of it.

Yoni and Lingga are sourced in that religion, only you'll have to guess which one. In my understanding, it is not a genital symbol of sex of feminine and masculine, but rather a symbol of creation of life as union of soul, spirit & body. Others can have their own values over my post and feel free to disagree. And nechesh, I did not imply either that esoteric keris will lose its esoteric properties when bought (instead of mahar).

Gurindam still practised behind the scene in marriage before the blessing. The groom likely to give to bride's parents mahar, usually gold or money, and spiritual things like holy books. This is not read as the groom intention to buy the bride with such things as the payment, but to be read as the commitment of the groom to do the best to financially and spiritually support the bride and the children, in the future. Parents will receive the mahar and give it to the bride. This is to be read that the commitment shall be subject to responsibility to the bride.

I think it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom.

The difference of these 2 marriages is the risk taken. Under mahar, the couple will face great risks in the future as what they have in present is nothing but their commitment (and love

). Under capitalism, the risk is minimized, which is the good thing. The bad thing is that people tend to value anything with money. People are people though marriage for mahar still use local currencies and marriage for sale may not. But people will ask, who or what do you love? or do you really love me or my beautiful car?

The original keris culture is that also, isn't? We can adapt to capitalism where culture shifts, but we can't forget who we are.

I don't oppose you who sell keris for living, but you'll respected if you are honest and sincere.

Boedhi Adhitya · 13th September 2005, 09:26 AM

I believe the Empu Gandring and Ken Arok legend was picked from "Serat Pararaton" (= Para Ratu, Cronicle of the Kings), which was written nearly 400 years after the actual incident happened ( Ken Arok / Singasari reign). It is, certainly, hard to verify, even at the time when the book was written. Some experts even interpret this "Empu Gandring" story as a symbolic languages (or gurindam, as Mr. Purwacarita define) depicting the "magnificent" struggle for power in Singasari between the families. But IF only this legend was TRUE, those who knew the legend would understood that the keris had not been finished by Mpu Gandring, which then caused Ken Arok, who've been waiting for a long time, to became very angry, grabbed the keris, and killed the empu himself. It was, actually, the blessing ceremony which had not been done. Mpu Gandring himself had warn Arok that the keris was fiery and full of anger when he came to took the keris. The curse which was spelled by Gandring while he was dying, would be the "blessing ceremony" then.
Making keris is an art, technically and spiritually, and can not being done in rush and anxious circumstance. The fact that Ken Arok was a well-known leader of robbers, would also influenced the "spiritual circumstance" of Mpu Gandring. Imagine this : How would you fell if Osama bin Laden commisioned a keris to you, if you an empu ? Your feeling or "spiritual circumstance" then would changed considerably and being easily absorbed to the keris you make, and nothing you can do about it. You have at least two options then : Stop working, which would only make the keris-making process delayed while the feeling still "haunt" you. Not to mention Mr "O" who may get angry for waiting too long. Or refuse the commision, which may cause Mr "O" send you a suicide bomber

Same situation might also apply to Gandring, and thus, it is easily understood then, why his keris so fiery and full of anger, even before Gandring cursed it.

I do agree with Mr. Purwacarita, it is almost impossible for empu, especially Master Empu, to "cast" bad intention in his keris. It was a "mishap" that made a bad keris. This might be technically or spiritually when the empu lost his concentration. Any disturbances which make the master empu angry, in doubt, anxious, annoyed, sad or any "bad feeling" would easily seep into the keris. Just like a composer when he compose a song. While a composer use a song as a media to express his idea, feeling, or wishes and a painter use the brush's strokes and colors, an empu choose the iron, pamor and others on a keris to serve this purpose. You may choose a song as "your song", or a painting which "describe" your feeling. You may also choose a keris to reflect your wishes, 'ideal character/personality' you wish to achive, your ideal 'way of life' or ambitions you wish to achieve(= 'Da Flag'). Then, the keris may serves as a 'remembrance', as every time you see your keris, you will remember of your wishes and gives you a "power/motivation" to achive it.(=Da Nationalism). Selling this kind of keris then would be felt very humiliating to the owners. Sometimes, on a very good pusaka, "the power" is so intense, that any "keris-illiterate" who see it would also overwhelmed by this kind of "unseen/spoken power". Just like any listener would be overwhelmed by a good song likes, said, Bohemian Rhapsody. This explanation, however, only explain the esoteric things from exoteric point of view. (perhaps an "exo-esoteric" explanation

) The real esoteric would also involve the empu's prayer/blessing.

Then, it is very easy to understand that the keris for a soldier would not match the wishes of a farmer. A merchant should not wear a keris intended for a king. Why ? Because his costumers want to be king also. Two king in one shop would only ended up in a war

Mahar-ed or bought, it will not make a lot of differences in this kind of "esoteric". It may also easily understood that "the old fashioned" Javanese would very reluctant to show his pusaka keris to a stranger, which may also show his ambitions, which is considered as unpolite in Javanese culture. It is also speculated that many good pusaka's ganja was changed on purpose with "ganja wulung" (=black ganja, that is, without pamor) to hide the ambition of the wearer/owner. (Yes, it is very possible to do an "educated guessing" on keris' pamor and dapur, only by looking the ganja on a sheathed keris. An expert may reach 80-90% accuracy. With ganja wulung, only dapur could be predicted, certainly).

Making keris technically, also took a lot of care and concentration. So, if you had a technically perfect keris, it would be almost always guarantee you a good concentration of the maker, which may also connected to "good spiritual circumstances". It may also always guarantee you profits, if you bought it on a fair price

"Yoni" jargon to describe the unseen "esoteric" things, IMHO, would be a "recent" invention. "Serat Centhini" which was written in 19 cent. did not use this terminology (it describe the meaning of ricikan and dapur though). It was said that Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, a Surakarta's court prince and also a respected keris expert, who introduced this terminology. (Unfortunately, Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat had passed away) He did not, as I recall (remember please, I have a short memories), explain the Lingga. IMHO, the "yoni" term would resembles the "Yin" side in Taoism( or Daoism, a more approriate spelling), while Lingga is the "Yang" side, the "seen" quality, and thus, the blade itself or exoteric things. Today in Java, Yoni terminology usually use on every "unseen" or "spiritual/spirit" qualities which reside on something, not limited to the female genital symbol where it was originated.
I do aware that some spirit/energy things may reside on kerises. I also aware that some of them reside on my collections. While I'm aware of their presence, once again, it is not my main concern/consideration on selecting kerises. Until today, we live happily and peacefully

Serat Centhini warned "be careful on selecting keris. The pamor/iron may bring you a good luck or a bad luck." It did not warn about the spirit or even wrote about it, as I recall.
One of the elders warn me :"Just like other traditional arts like wayang (shadow puppet) or Gamelan, the keris standards, as a classic Javanese art, had been set. Anyone who seeks other standards would only get lost." Perhaps, it is only a Javanese "chauvinistic" point of view

Yes, Tim. It is sad to say that almost all about money. It is a fact of live

Money may not buy everything, it only able to buy 99% things in this world

nechesh · 13th September 2005, 10:50 PM

Boedhi Adhitya, thank you once again for shedding light and answering questions that others seem unable to answer. I have found your input on both this thread and the forum in general to be invaluable.

Purwacarita, i am not sure where you have gotten you ideas about marriage "under capitalism", but i can assure you that at least here in the USA the average couple still marries for love of one another, not money or possessions. What ever gave you the impression that "it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom." Gee, if that were the case i would never have been able to find my beautiful, loving wife.

Yes, there are certainly cultural differences between here and Indonesia, but i am concerned that you seem determined to push forth the differences you perceive rather than the similarities. Like many North Americans my wife and i began our marriage with love and commitment to walk the path of life together...and very little else. I think perhaps you have watched too many episodes of "Desperate Housewives" or some such TV show.

Fortunately, even so called reality television does not reflect the actual lives of real people.

Mark · 13th September 2005, 11:41 PM

Well, its hardly unheard of to marry for money, particularly in a capitalist society ....

12th September 2005, 03:22 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for your clear and concise explanations. As usual you have shed some light on a very complex subject. And thank you for the definitions as well. Your words make a lot of sense to me. Purwacarita, it seems to me that the man making his keris cut grass for the TV cameras is more likely using slight-of-hand or some other stage magic technique than the more esorteric explanation that he has mastered some prana energy. He is most probably a chalatan, not a holy man. IMO dogs can be made to do "tricks", but keris should not. I am curious about your use of the terms Yoni and Lingam (lingga). These are Hindu terms of Sanskrit origin with rather particular meaning. They refer specifically to the venerated symbols of the female (goddess) and male (god, specifically Siva) genitialia as it applies to the Hindu religion. From what source are you making your adaptations of these concepts to the keris? I am not saying one way or another is i believe this application is correct, but i would be interested to know what you base it on. I do find the use of the term Yoni to mean "esorteric" a bit vague.

13th September 2005, 06:41 AM	#2
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi nechesh. I don't think it was a stage magic technique as it was performed in kraton Surakarta, but I don't care if the guy in the show had mastered the prana or not, nor if he was a magician. The show was intended to be understood as soul inhabited keris and it is very convincing for those who does not understand. I meant to say that the show was not soul inhabited keris and disprove any supertitious belief of it. Yoni and Lingga are sourced in that religion, only you'll have to guess which one. In my understanding, it is not a genital symbol of sex of feminine and masculine, but rather a symbol of creation of life as union of soul, spirit & body. Others can have their own values over my post and feel free to disagree. And nechesh, I did not imply either that esoteric keris will lose its esoteric properties when bought (instead of mahar). Gurindam still practised behind the scene in marriage before the blessing. The groom likely to give to bride's parents mahar, usually gold or money, and spiritual things like holy books. This is not read as the groom intention to buy the bride with such things as the payment, but to be read as the commitment of the groom to do the best to financially and spiritually support the bride and the children, in the future. Parents will receive the mahar and give it to the bride. This is to be read that the commitment shall be subject to responsibility to the bride. I think it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom. The difference of these 2 marriages is the risk taken. Under mahar, the couple will face great risks in the future as what they have in present is nothing but their commitment (and love ). Under capitalism, the risk is minimized, which is the good thing. The bad thing is that people tend to value anything with money. People are people though marriage for mahar still use local currencies and marriage for sale may not. But people will ask, who or what do you love? or do you really love me or my beautiful car? The original keris culture is that also, isn't? We can adapt to capitalism where culture shifts, but we can't forget who we are. I don't oppose you who sell keris for living, but you'll respected if you are honest and sincere.

13th September 2005, 09:26 AM	#3
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	I believe the Empu Gandring and Ken Arok legend was picked from "Serat Pararaton" (= Para Ratu, Cronicle of the Kings), which was written nearly 400 years after the actual incident happened ( Ken Arok / Singasari reign). It is, certainly, hard to verify, even at the time when the book was written. Some experts even interpret this "Empu Gandring" story as a symbolic languages (or gurindam, as Mr. Purwacarita define) depicting the "magnificent" struggle for power in Singasari between the families. But IF only this legend was TRUE, those who knew the legend would understood that the keris had not been finished by Mpu Gandring, which then caused Ken Arok, who've been waiting for a long time, to became very angry, grabbed the keris, and killed the empu himself. It was, actually, the blessing ceremony which had not been done. Mpu Gandring himself had warn Arok that the keris was fiery and full of anger when he came to took the keris. The curse which was spelled by Gandring while he was dying, would be the "blessing ceremony" then. Making keris is an art, technically and spiritually, and can not being done in rush and anxious circumstance. The fact that Ken Arok was a well-known leader of robbers, would also influenced the "spiritual circumstance" of Mpu Gandring. Imagine this : How would you fell if Osama bin Laden commisioned a keris to you, if you an empu ? Your feeling or "spiritual circumstance" then would changed considerably and being easily absorbed to the keris you make, and nothing you can do about it. You have at least two options then : Stop working, which would only make the keris-making process delayed while the feeling still "haunt" you. Not to mention Mr "O" who may get angry for waiting too long. Or refuse the commision, which may cause Mr "O" send you a suicide bomber Same situation might also apply to Gandring, and thus, it is easily understood then, why his keris so fiery and full of anger, even before Gandring cursed it. I do agree with Mr. Purwacarita, it is almost impossible for empu, especially Master Empu, to "cast" bad intention in his keris. It was a "mishap" that made a bad keris. This might be technically or spiritually when the empu lost his concentration. Any disturbances which make the master empu angry, in doubt, anxious, annoyed, sad or any "bad feeling" would easily seep into the keris. Just like a composer when he compose a song. While a composer use a song as a media to express his idea, feeling, or wishes and a painter use the brush's strokes and colors, an empu choose the iron, pamor and others on a keris to serve this purpose. You may choose a song as "your song", or a painting which "describe" your feeling. You may also choose a keris to reflect your wishes, 'ideal character/personality' you wish to achive, your ideal 'way of life' or ambitions you wish to achieve(= 'Da Flag'). Then, the keris may serves as a 'remembrance', as every time you see your keris, you will remember of your wishes and gives you a "power/motivation" to achive it.(=Da Nationalism). Selling this kind of keris then would be felt very humiliating to the owners. Sometimes, on a very good pusaka, "the power" is so intense, that any "keris-illiterate" who see it would also overwhelmed by this kind of "unseen/spoken power". Just like any listener would be overwhelmed by a good song likes, said, Bohemian Rhapsody. This explanation, however, only explain the esoteric things from exoteric point of view. (perhaps an "exo-esoteric" explanation ) The real esoteric would also involve the empu's prayer/blessing. Then, it is very easy to understand that the keris for a soldier would not match the wishes of a farmer. A merchant should not wear a keris intended for a king. Why ? Because his costumers want to be king also. Two king in one shop would only ended up in a war Mahar-ed or bought, it will not make a lot of differences in this kind of "esoteric". It may also easily understood that "the old fashioned" Javanese would very reluctant to show his pusaka keris to a stranger, which may also show his ambitions, which is considered as unpolite in Javanese culture. It is also speculated that many good pusaka's ganja was changed on purpose with "ganja wulung" (=black ganja, that is, without pamor) to hide the ambition of the wearer/owner. (Yes, it is very possible to do an "educated guessing" on keris' pamor and dapur, only by looking the ganja on a sheathed keris. An expert may reach 80-90% accuracy. With ganja wulung, only dapur could be predicted, certainly). Making keris technically, also took a lot of care and concentration. So, if you had a technically perfect keris, it would be almost always guarantee you a good concentration of the maker, which may also connected to "good spiritual circumstances". It may also always guarantee you profits, if you bought it on a fair price "Yoni" jargon to describe the unseen "esoteric" things, IMHO, would be a "recent" invention. "Serat Centhini" which was written in 19 cent. did not use this terminology (it describe the meaning of ricikan and dapur though). It was said that Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, a Surakarta's court prince and also a respected keris expert, who introduced this terminology. (Unfortunately, Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat had passed away) He did not, as I recall (remember please, I have a short memories), explain the Lingga. IMHO, the "yoni" term would resembles the "Yin" side in Taoism( or Daoism, a more approriate spelling), while Lingga is the "Yang" side, the "seen" quality, and thus, the blade itself or exoteric things. Today in Java, Yoni terminology usually use on every "unseen" or "spiritual/spirit" qualities which reside on something, not limited to the female genital symbol where it was originated. I do aware that some spirit/energy things may reside on kerises. I also aware that some of them reside on my collections. While I'm aware of their presence, once again, it is not my main concern/consideration on selecting kerises. Until today, we live happily and peacefully Serat Centhini warned "be careful on selecting keris. The pamor/iron may bring you a good luck or a bad luck." It did not warn about the spirit or even wrote about it, as I recall. One of the elders warn me :"Just like other traditional arts like wayang (shadow puppet) or Gamelan, the keris standards, as a classic Javanese art, had been set. Anyone who seeks other standards would only get lost." Perhaps, it is only a Javanese "chauvinistic" point of view Yes, Tim. It is sad to say that almost all about money. It is a fact of live Money may not buy everything, it only able to buy 99% things in this world

13th September 2005, 10:50 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Boedhi Adhitya, thank you once again for shedding light and answering questions that others seem unable to answer. I have found your input on both this thread and the forum in general to be invaluable. Purwacarita, i am not sure where you have gotten you ideas about marriage "under capitalism", but i can assure you that at least here in the USA the average couple still marries for love of one another, not money or possessions. What ever gave you the impression that "it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom." Gee, if that were the case i would never have been able to find my beautiful, loving wife. Yes, there are certainly cultural differences between here and Indonesia, but i am concerned that you seem determined to push forth the differences you perceive rather than the similarities. Like many North Americans my wife and i began our marriage with love and commitment to walk the path of life together...and very little else. I think perhaps you have watched too many episodes of "Desperate Housewives" or some such TV show. Fortunately, even so called reality television does not reflect the actual lives of real people.

13th September 2005, 11:41 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Well, its hardly unheard of to marry for money, particularly in a capitalist society ....