Help wanted Identification of Katars

Jens Nordlunde · 11th September 2005, 11:01 AM

Hi Rick,

It is an interesting double marking you have on your tulwar, it is seldom to see double markings on weapons. It could be an owner’s name, and an armoury mark added later, or it could be two different armoury markings – but this is only speculation so far.

Hi Jim,

Your quotation of Elgood is very good, as it is very seldom to find a quotation like that.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier is, that besides a number, the text can give the name of the owner of the armoury or the name of the armoury itself, but in most cases it is likely that the text has been abbreviated, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to be sure from which armoury the weapons came, as we now only know of some of the armouries – armouries closed for many years are long forgotten, although we may find weapons marked in one of these places. We must also remember that many different languages were/are spoken in India, and to be able to read the text, you will have to know the language it is written in.

geneacom · 11th September 2005, 08:22 PM

hello everyone,
I made new digital pictures of my brothers' katars and some extra ones.
One of the extra is a very large katar and the other one is a very old one, I think.
Right now I am preparing the pictures for publishing here.
So keep watching ...

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2005, 09:52 PM

Hi Jens,
You're right, it is remarkably difficult to try to read or decipher armoury or arsenal markings because of the varying dialects and alphabetics. Even more confounding is the fact that such markings are typically the result of often reluctant bureaucratic tediom, inventorying. I cannot think of anyone who ever looked forward to 'inventory'! Thus the result of diminishing accuracy and omissions etc. The abbreviations and numbers can only have made sense to those directly involved in that particular armory and period. There was no standardization or system employed outside that armory and by others.

I recall some time ago trying to discover the meaning of such a marking on a Chinese sabre, which was apparantly inscribed in Manchu. Hoping for some meaningful, telling mark I pursued having it translated, not easily done as this is apparantly elusive these days in Chinese linguistics. When finally it was done all that could be determined was a vague interpretation of 'tempered steel' or 'good steel' or something of that form.

Even European military weapons are maddening in trying to discover the significance of key placed little letters and numbers and symbols in all manner of places on weapons. With these one is always hoping to find regimental attribution, but with such markings there is the one constant...inconsistancy!

Looking forward to seeing these next photos Geneacom!!!

All the best,
Jim

geneacom · 12th September 2005, 12:01 AM

Well, here's something coming.

geneacom · 12th September 2005, 12:37 AM

This is a large one, the ruler is 30 cm long!

geneacom · 12th September 2005, 12:59 AM

Here is my special piece, the one I like the most.
More detailphotos following soon ...

geneacom · 13th September 2005, 11:20 PM

here are some additional (detail) pictures of the small katar.

geneacom · 14th September 2005, 10:20 PM

The last week I have published 4 photosets of katars from different viewpoints.
That's what everybody was asking for.
Up until now, not a single reaction.
Nobody interested anymore?
That's a pity, because I have another 25 katars waiting to be photographed.

If there is no reaction at all, I wil stop and save myself the trouble of making all these pictures, put them all together and publish them!
Rob van Willigen (Geneacom)

spiral · 14th September 2005, 11:12 PM

Thanks for your time & effort Rob!

I have found this a fascinating thread, especialy your photos & the discusian re armoury marks.

I am jealous of such a museam quality collection!

I would imagine this group of katars is the envy of anyone who collects katars.

Spiral

Rick · 14th September 2005, 11:24 PM

I think that from reading the discussion Rob no one here knows how to decipher the armory marks . Many legitimate reasons were given for this .
I'm sorry if we seem to have let you down in this respect .
Quite possibly no one has ever made a study of these markings .

The katars are quite beautiful .

PUFF · 5th July 2006, 10:31 AM

As far as I know, hindu-arabic scripts could be associated with period and place. You might be able to catagorize your speciments according to their period and place.

3-5-8 in figure 12a is a good start

(hopefully, nothing related to its caliber )

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2015, 04:03 PM

Geneacom,
I was just looking at this old thread, and I have some news.
The katar you show in post 26 is from Bundi.
I have researched these katars, and written an article about them. They are from first half of the 19th ceentury.
Jens

B.I · 14th September 2005, 11:36 PM

the dotted inscriptions are thought to be inventory or shelf marks. this is a loose description, but it has been debated and no better 'guess' has been offered. they are from the bikaner armoury, as others have stated and thought to have been put onto the contents of the armoury at some point in the 19thC.
there is an account from the armourer of bikaner in 1900, discussing the potential origins of some of the pieces and the placement of there marks could have hailed from this time (as it was hinted that this armourer had gone through the collection. either way, the 19thC date comes from the fact that certain 19thC pieces hold the same type of marking, as well has 16thC pieces in the same armoury. the marks were put onto all pieces, whether made in the region or captured at some point in the armouries history. some pieces (like some of your daggers) held more than one set of marks, and some had up to 4. again, this has fed the 'shelf mark' theory, in that when moved, an additional set of marks were put on. personally, i feel this is little thin, but i am happy to believe they are inventory marks of some kind. they cannot be armourers marks (which has been agreed, no matter what else is debated) as these marks were put alongside armourers marks, and were normally poorly done. also, they were put onto pieces that were many hundreds of miles apart in origin, and upto 400 years apart in date.
the marks are normally numbers, and many (maybe even a majority) were preceded with a 'symbol' that was neither a number nor a letter. i have attached a compliation of this symbol found in the pieces on this particular post.
what this symbol is i dont know, but hope to find out at some point in my lifetime. i have been pursuing it for a number of years and have only heard specualtion. the armoury itself (now a series of museums) cant offer any more information. an interesting point is that there did exist a written inventory, which was seen a number fo years ago. this ledger may hold clues, but i'm afraid it will never be seen again, being condemning evidence against the hoard of pieces going missing some 10 years ago (and ultimately ending up in your brothers collection).

the numbers itself could be a number of different languages, but the presence of other dotted inscriptions (other than numbers and this symbol) show the language to be a strange for of devanagri, although different enough to be a possible language in itself.
i have had aome of these longer inscription read, but with no satifactory results.
the problem is that devenagri is a written language only, and whatever form of it this is, seems to have been forgotten many years ago.

inscriptions aside, look again to the very large katar your brother has. the grip bars seem a little mishapen.
this is because they could possibly have been chisselled elephant heads (one on either side - 4 in total) which was a feature shown in some other pieces from the same armoury. yours are very worn, as are the facets of the grip bars but i'm sure this was the original feature.

Andrew · 15th September 2005, 03:07 AM

Excellent post, Brian. Thank you.

Rob, a great wealth of information resides in this forum and its archives. The membership here has a broad base of experience from collecting to research.

However, the study of ethnographic weaponry is often a rather esoteric and exotic pursuit. Poor documentation, extravagent and incredible provenance, colonialistic perspective and language barriers all contribute to the unanswered questions. It was this very lack of reliable information that first attracted me to ethnographic weapons and continues to keep me engaged and intellectually stimulated. While such things as militaria and nihonto have always fascinated me, there are few "mysteries" left to explore in those areas.

These forums are often a good starting place for research and investigation, as well as a place to share knowlege, experience and speculation. I once described the process as "edged weapon free-association" (or something similar). I truly hope you'll stick around and share more with us, despite your obvious disappointment. You may yet find the answers to your questions, or even to questions you've not yet thought of.

Best,
Andrew

11th September 2005, 08:22 PM	#2
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	new pictures of Katars hello everyone, I made new digital pictures of my brothers' katars and some extra ones. One of the extra is a very large katar and the other one is a very old one, I think. Right now I am preparing the pictures for publishing here. So keep watching ...

12th September 2005, 12:01 AM	#4
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Well, here's something coming. Attached Images Last edited by geneacom; 12th September 2005 at 12:31 AM.

12th September 2005, 12:37 AM	#5
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	This is a large one, the ruler is 30 cm long! Attached Images Last edited by geneacom; 12th September 2005 at 12:52 AM.

12th September 2005, 12:59 AM	#6
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Here is my special piece, the one I like the most. More detailphotos following soon ... Attached Images

13th September 2005, 11:20 PM	#7
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	here are some additional (detail) pictures of the small katar. Attached Images

11th September 2005, 11:01 AM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, It is an interesting double marking you have on your tulwar, it is seldom to see double markings on weapons. It could be an owner’s name, and an armoury mark added later, or it could be two different armoury markings – but this is only speculation so far. Hi Jim, Your quotation of Elgood is very good, as it is very seldom to find a quotation like that. One thing I forgot to mention earlier is, that besides a number, the text can give the name of the owner of the armoury or the name of the armoury itself, but in most cases it is likely that the text has been abbreviated, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to be sure from which armoury the weapons came, as we now only know of some of the armouries – armouries closed for many years are long forgotten, although we may find weapons marked in one of these places. We must also remember that many different languages were/are spoken in India, and to be able to read the text, you will have to know the language it is written in.

11th September 2005, 09:52 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Jens, You're right, it is remarkably difficult to try to read or decipher armoury or arsenal markings because of the varying dialects and alphabetics. Even more confounding is the fact that such markings are typically the result of often reluctant bureaucratic tediom, inventorying. I cannot think of anyone who ever looked forward to 'inventory'! Thus the result of diminishing accuracy and omissions etc. The abbreviations and numbers can only have made sense to those directly involved in that particular armory and period. There was no standardization or system employed outside that armory and by others. I recall some time ago trying to discover the meaning of such a marking on a Chinese sabre, which was apparantly inscribed in Manchu. Hoping for some meaningful, telling mark I pursued having it translated, not easily done as this is apparantly elusive these days in Chinese linguistics. When finally it was done all that could be determined was a vague interpretation of 'tempered steel' or 'good steel' or something of that form. Even European military weapons are maddening in trying to discover the significance of key placed little letters and numbers and symbols in all manner of places on weapons. With these one is always hoping to find regimental attribution, but with such markings there is the one constant...inconsistancy! Looking forward to seeing these next photos Geneacom!!! All the best, Jim

14th September 2005, 10:20 PM	#8
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	New pictures The last week I have published 4 photosets of katars from different viewpoints. That's what everybody was asking for. Up until now, not a single reaction. Nobody interested anymore? That's a pity, because I have another 25 katars waiting to be photographed. If there is no reaction at all, I wil stop and save myself the trouble of making all these pictures, put them all together and publish them! Rob van Willigen (Geneacom) Last edited by geneacom; 14th September 2005 at 10:33 PM.

14th September 2005, 11:12 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks for your time & effort Rob! I have found this a fascinating thread, especialy your photos & the discusian re armoury marks. I am jealous of such a museam quality collection! I would imagine this group of katars is the envy of anyone who collects katars. Spiral

14th September 2005, 11:24 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I think that from reading the discussion Rob no one here knows how to decipher the armory marks . Many legitimate reasons were given for this . I'm sorry if we seem to have let you down in this respect . Quite possibly no one has ever made a study of these markings . The katars are quite beautiful .

5th July 2006, 10:31 AM	#11
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	As far as I know, hindu-arabic scripts could be associated with period and place. You might be able to catagorize your speciments according to their period and place. 3-5-8 in figure 12a is a good start (hopefully, nothing related to its caliber )

11th January 2015, 04:03 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Geneacom, I was just looking at this old thread, and I have some news. The katar you show in post 26 is from Bundi. I have researched these katars, and written an article about them. They are from first half of the 19th ceentury. Jens

14th September 2005, 11:36 PM	#13
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	the dotted inscriptions are thought to be inventory or shelf marks. this is a loose description, but it has been debated and no better 'guess' has been offered. they are from the bikaner armoury, as others have stated and thought to have been put onto the contents of the armoury at some point in the 19thC. there is an account from the armourer of bikaner in 1900, discussing the potential origins of some of the pieces and the placement of there marks could have hailed from this time (as it was hinted that this armourer had gone through the collection. either way, the 19thC date comes from the fact that certain 19thC pieces hold the same type of marking, as well has 16thC pieces in the same armoury. the marks were put onto all pieces, whether made in the region or captured at some point in the armouries history. some pieces (like some of your daggers) held more than one set of marks, and some had up to 4. again, this has fed the 'shelf mark' theory, in that when moved, an additional set of marks were put on. personally, i feel this is little thin, but i am happy to believe they are inventory marks of some kind. they cannot be armourers marks (which has been agreed, no matter what else is debated) as these marks were put alongside armourers marks, and were normally poorly done. also, they were put onto pieces that were many hundreds of miles apart in origin, and upto 400 years apart in date. the marks are normally numbers, and many (maybe even a majority) were preceded with a 'symbol' that was neither a number nor a letter. i have attached a compliation of this symbol found in the pieces on this particular post. what this symbol is i dont know, but hope to find out at some point in my lifetime. i have been pursuing it for a number of years and have only heard specualtion. the armoury itself (now a series of museums) cant offer any more information. an interesting point is that there did exist a written inventory, which was seen a number fo years ago. this ledger may hold clues, but i'm afraid it will never be seen again, being condemning evidence against the hoard of pieces going missing some 10 years ago (and ultimately ending up in your brothers collection). the numbers itself could be a number of different languages, but the presence of other dotted inscriptions (other than numbers and this symbol) show the language to be a strange for of devanagri, although different enough to be a possible language in itself. i have had aome of these longer inscription read, but with no satifactory results. the problem is that devenagri is a written language only, and whatever form of it this is, seems to have been forgotten many years ago. inscriptions aside, look again to the very large katar your brother has. the grip bars seem a little mishapen. this is because they could possibly have been chisselled elephant heads (one on either side - 4 in total) which was a feature shown in some other pieces from the same armoury. yours are very worn, as are the facets of the grip bars but i'm sure this was the original feature. Attached Images

15th September 2005, 03:07 AM	#14
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Excellent post, Brian. Thank you. Rob, a great wealth of information resides in this forum and its archives. The membership here has a broad base of experience from collecting to research. However, the study of ethnographic weaponry is often a rather esoteric and exotic pursuit. Poor documentation, extravagent and incredible provenance, colonialistic perspective and language barriers all contribute to the unanswered questions. It was this very lack of reliable information that first attracted me to ethnographic weapons and continues to keep me engaged and intellectually stimulated. While such things as militaria and nihonto have always fascinated me, there are few "mysteries" left to explore in those areas. These forums are often a good starting place for research and investigation, as well as a place to share knowlege, experience and speculation. I once described the process as "edged weapon free-association" (or something similar). I truly hope you'll stick around and share more with us, despite your obvious disappointment. You may yet find the answers to your questions, or even to questions you've not yet thought of. Best, Andrew