A Very Old Kris

David · 12th August 2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

very interesting, ron! thanks.

i'm particularly intrigued by the tang's square to semi-round cross section, because this 10th to 15th century visayan kris which was discussed somewhat extensively here in the forum already shows a square cross section (see illustration below).

on the other hand, i don't doubt the antiquity of the kris above.

but i'm no expert on krises. hence this visayan kris is being shown just for additional inputs ...

Frankly Miguel, i am of the same mind as Alan here that without either a gandik or a gonjo this is not really a kris/keris.

migueldiaz · 13th August 2012, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Frankly Miguel, i am of the same mind as Alan here that without either a gandik or a gonjo this is not really a kris/keris.

Hi David (and all), thanks for the comments. Given the particular features of a kris/keris mentioned, then I think for the avoidance of confusion I should not call the example I posted above as a kris.

And I think the much better term for it is kalis.

Kalis for everybody's info is the ancient Philippine generic term for any war sword or war knife. The first non-Asian written account of the term [kalis] was via Magallanes & company, a term they picked up among others when they reached Cebu in 1521.

But a linguistic study of the term kalis (or karis, as 'l' and 'r' are sometimes interchangeable in almost all of Philippine dialects) will reveal that kalis as a term for war sword-knife was used all over our islands. I'm listing below the references I've personally examined, as support. In summary, the Philippine dictionaries below (spanning the period from the late-1500s to the late-1800s, and covering most the major dialects of the country), all name kalis as the equivalent of the Spanish term espada.

To recap, kalis (and not keris or kris) should be the more appropriate term to use for any ancient Philippine war sword-knife.

And from kalis sprang forth the Moro kris, the Visayan talibong, the Tagalog itak, the Bicol minasbad, the Igorot pinahig, etc. Just to clarify, the above Visayan kalis would not be the only form of the generic kalis. For sure the form factor of kalis then was as variegated as the number of dialects spoken in our islands.

---

BERGAÑO, Diego. Vocabulario de la Lengua Pampanga en Romance. 1732.

BERGAÑO, Diego. Vocabulary of the Kapampangan Language in Spanish and Dictionary of the Spanish Language in Kapampangan (translation done by Fr. Venancio Q. Samson for the Juan D. Nepomuceno Center for Kapampangan Studies and the National Commission for Culture and the Arts). Holy Angel University Press. Pampanga. 2007.

CARRO, Andres. Vocabulario de la Lengua Ilocana. Manila. 1849.

COWIE, Wm. Clark. English-Sulu-Malay Vocabulary. London. 1893.

ENCARNACION, Juan Felix de la. Diccionario Bisaya-Español. Manila. 1851.

HASSAN, Irene U.; ASHLEY, Seymour A.; & ASHLEY, Mary L. Tausug-English Dictionary. Summer Institute of Linguistics. Manila. 1994.

LISBOA, Marcos de. Vocabulario de la Lengua Bicol … . Pueblo de Sampaloc. 1754.

McKAUGHAN, Howard P. & MACARAYA, Batua A. A Maranao Dictionary. Univ. of Hawaii Press. 1967.

MENTRIDA, Alonso de. Diccionario de la Lengua Bisaya, Hiligueina y Haraya [Hiligaynon at Kinaray-a]. 1637.

JUANMARTI, Jacinto. Diccionario Moro-Maguindanao-Español. Manila. 1892.

NOCEDA, Juan de y SANLUCAR, Pedro de. Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala [Tagalog], compuesto por varios religiosos doctor y graves … . Manila. 1754 [Reimpreso en Manila. Imprenta de Ramirez y Giraudier. 1860]

PIGAFETTA, Antonio. Magellan’s Voyage – A Narrative Account of the First Circumnavigation. Yale University. 1969.

_________. [Magellan’s Voyage ...] From the Ambrosiana [Italian] Codex, and translated to English by James Roberston, in ‘Blair & Robertson’, Vol. 1 No. 33.

_________. [Magellan’s Voyage ...] From the Nancy-Libri-Phillipps-Beinecke-Yale [French] Codex.

SAN BUENA VENTURA, Pedro de. Vocabulario de Lengua Tagala [Tagalog] – El Romance Castellano Puesto Primero. Con licencia Impreso en la noble Villa de Pila [Laguna], Por Thomas Pinpin, y Domingo Loag. Tagalos. Año de 1613.

SANCHEZ, Matheo. Vocabulario de la Lengua Bisaya [Waray]. Manila. 1711.

SANTOS, Domingo de los. Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala [Tagalog] … . 1703.

Spunjer · 13th August 2012, 12:27 PM

i was driving home last night when i was reading the responses.

what lorenz said, david. it might not be the keris as you know it, but nevertheless, it's the term that was used in the archipelago since time immemorial. as an example, when someone hear the term "parang", one automatically thinks it refer to a particular indonesian sword, which is in a way correct, but that same exact term is still used in some parts of sulu. it might not be the parang as we know it, but it is what it is...

migueldiaz · 13th August 2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

... it's the term that was used in the archipelago since time immemorial. as an example, when someone hear the term "parang", one automatically thinks it refer to a particular indonesian sword, which is in a way correct, but that same exact term is still used in some parts of sulu. it might not be the parang as we know it, but it is what it is...

ron, right on the money.

thus insofar as our dear departed superancestors are concerned, all of those war swords and knives of ours are collectively called kalis or karis. and we use these terms up to this day.

and our indonesian cousins call them keris, as we all know.

another example is the the philippine term for weapon in general, sandata, which is senjata in indonesian. again, the terms are cognates.

actually even the indonesian term parang has an equivalent term in our dialects up to now -- the pampangos still use palang to refer to the same thing.

and parang & palang are the same essentially because we also know that in our languages 'l' and 'r' are sometimes interchangeable: multo-murto; talibong-taribong; lanaw-ranaw; balangay-barangay; ilanun-iranun; kulitan-kuritan; lugal-lugar; tulogan-torogan; baloto-baroto; sulat-surat; puliran-pulilan; miro-milo (pusa); parakol-palakol, etc.

going back to the question on when the first philippine kris came about (i.e., the moro form), i'd like to present four slides lifted from my presentation on a related subject to a local historical society.

here's the first slide, and i'd like to point out the following:

[1] the oldest local war knife-sword i know is the visayan (from argao, cebu) piece on the leftmost side of the slide; it was dated by karl hutterer (an american archeologist who dug it up in the 1970s) as early iron age, which would be about 500 to 400 b.c. if i'm not mistaken;

[2] we can see that this turned out to be a classical blade profile, as for the next 2,500 years, the leaf-shaped symmetrical blade with bifurcated pommel never died;

[3] however for the gold-hilted daggers in the center (10th to 13th century a.d.), i'm not quite sure whether their blades are leaf-shaped also -- but some other examples from the same age range have the leaf-shaped blade for sure;

[4] now i don't think there's something special about this blade shape, as the same shape is also found in the engravings in angkor wat, in the old temples in indonesia, etc.

so what's my point? ... well, i'm actually still figuring it out

migueldiaz · 13th August 2012, 02:02 PM

as an aside, so when did we [in our islands] start calling kalis-karis as kris? i think this is just recently -- and as far as i know, kris as a term first appeared only in the 1890s, in cowie's sulu-malay-english dictionary in particular.

thanks by the way to the person who pointed me to this cowie book -- yo, you know who you are!

then in capt. woodard's account of his imprisonment in sulawesi (celebes) by malay 'pirates' in the 1790s, 'cress' was mentioned as the local term for sword (see below, and note that the sulawesi kris has a rather curious placement of the half-wavy portion of the blade -- but the birdie was already there on the pommel).

back to our shores, in the 1700s spanish dictionaries of local dialects, we don't find the term kris. rather, it's always kalis or karis.

thus in conclusion, i think it's safe then to really call the pre-moro kris (as well as the excavated artifacts i showed above from other parts of the country), as kalis.

p.s. - but how did karis become kris? as in many languages, contractions happen. for cebuanos out there for instance, they can easily cite gayud, which became gyud over the decades, and now jud.

migueldiaz · 13th August 2012, 02:16 PM

Here's the 2nd slide, i.e., various Filipino costumes, from the 1590 Boxer Codex. Note that it appears that everywhere in Luzon (northern Philippines) and the Visayas (central Phils.), the same symmetrical blade with bifurcated hilt was used.

On the one hand, one can become suspicious as to whether the painter just became lazy and thus painted the same sword type over and over again.

On the other hand, the painter's attention to details (on the dress, accessories, etc.) tends to negate that apprehension.

In any case, I think the point is that for a long time as far as our country is concerned, it looks like there's some homogeneity in sword design. Perhaps they figured that if it ain't broke, then one should not fix it.

migueldiaz · 13th August 2012, 02:25 PM

Then almost a hundred years later, in the Visayas as recorded by the Spanish priest Alcina, the same sword design persisted.

Pls. note that the design is almost identical to Hutterer's Early Iron Age Cebu dagger, especially the 'ice pick' on the hilt's pommel -- and this after about 2,000 years!

As a side note, the placement of the sword on the right side of the waist makes sense then. Because if one were to hold the hilt with the right hand as if holding an ice pick (and not as if holding a hammer), then a quick strike to the enemy can easily be made with said 'ice pick'.

13th August 2012, 02:02 PM	#5
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	as an aside, so when did we [in our islands] start calling kalis-karis as kris? i think this is just recently -- and as far as i know, kris as a term first appeared only in the 1890s, in cowie's sulu-malay-english dictionary in particular. thanks by the way to the person who pointed me to this cowie book -- yo, you know who you are! then in capt. woodard's account of his imprisonment in sulawesi (celebes) by malay 'pirates' in the 1790s, 'cress' was mentioned as the local term for sword (see below, and note that the sulawesi kris has a rather curious placement of the half-wavy portion of the blade -- but the birdie was already there on the pommel). back to our shores, in the 1700s spanish dictionaries of local dialects, we don't find the term kris. rather, it's always kalis or karis. thus in conclusion, i think it's safe then to really call the pre-moro kris (as well as the excavated artifacts i showed above from other parts of the country), as kalis. p.s. - but how did karis become kris? as in many languages, contractions happen. for cebuanos out there for instance, they can easily cite gayud, which became gyud over the decades, and now jud. Attached Images

13th August 2012, 02:16 PM	#6
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Here's the 2nd slide, i.e., various Filipino costumes, from the 1590 Boxer Codex. Note that it appears that everywhere in Luzon (northern Philippines) and the Visayas (central Phils.), the same symmetrical blade with bifurcated hilt was used. On the one hand, one can become suspicious as to whether the painter just became lazy and thus painted the same sword type over and over again. On the other hand, the painter's attention to details (on the dress, accessories, etc.) tends to negate that apprehension. In any case, I think the point is that for a long time as far as our country is concerned, it looks like there's some homogeneity in sword design. Perhaps they figured that if it ain't broke, then one should not fix it. Attached Images

13th August 2012, 02:25 PM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Then almost a hundred years later, in the Visayas as recorded by the Spanish priest Alcina, the same sword design persisted. Pls. note that the design is almost identical to Hutterer's Early Iron Age Cebu dagger, especially the 'ice pick' on the hilt's pommel -- and this after about 2,000 years! As a side note, the placement of the sword on the right side of the waist makes sense then. Because if one were to hold the hilt with the right hand as if holding an ice pick (and not as if holding a hammer), then a quick strike to the enemy can easily be made with said 'ice pick'. Attached Images

13th August 2012, 12:27 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i was driving home last night when i was reading the responses. what lorenz said, david. it might not be the keris as you know it, but nevertheless, it's the term that was used in the archipelago since time immemorial. as an example, when someone hear the term "parang", one automatically thinks it refer to a particular indonesian sword, which is in a way correct, but that same exact term is still used in some parts of sulu. it might not be the parang as we know it, but it is what it is...