A Very Old Kris

Spunjer · 11th August 2012, 01:37 PM

there were a few things that was intriguing about this particular kris. one, it doesn't have an asang2x. that, by itself is no big deal, since we've seen krises missing these parts before. but the weird thing about this is, it appears that it never had an asang2x before. asang2x are normally attached one of two ways: outside the ferrule; which is then wrapped, or inside the ferrule, which you would normally see an indentation mark on the wooden part of the handle.
since the handle was slightly loose, i decided to disassemble the whole thing. as you can see, there's no mark anywhere on the wooden part of the handle that it has an asang2x before. the ferrule looked relatively snug to the wood part, and it doesn't have an indentation mark usually left by a strip of metal anywhere. perhaps the handle could also be a later addition, in which the owner decided to disregard the asang2x.
another pleasant surprise was the tang. theoretically, the oldest moro krises has round tang, similar to their indonesian counterparts. this one is an almost round, squarish actually, but still, it would have the possibility of spinning if it didn't have any stirrups to hold it in place.
looking closely at the blade closest to the gangya, there's a very faint mark that it might have had a asang2x before, but it wasn't there long enough to leave an indentation or discoloration. was this particular kris then, during the transitional stage mentioned in the old threads?

discuss...

p.s.
only part i've worked on so far was the pommel, and yes, it's ivory..

David · 11th August 2012, 01:53 PM

Wow, nice find Ron. Maybe a "missing link" of sorts.

Too bad that the the "elephant trunk" has lost the tip of it's trunk, but then, who cares with a find like this.
I need to go to more gun shows...

Sajen · 11th August 2012, 03:39 PM

Very nice archaic blade! And beautiful patinated ivory pommel. Wouldn't be so sure that it never have had minimum one asang. The wrapped part of the handle seems modified at some point of it's history. Do you plan to give it a sheath?

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 11th August 2012, 06:11 PM

Great and interesting find! Great to find a tang like this.

I wonder if it had an asang-asang originally but early on was taken off.

Spunjer · 12th August 2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Too bad that the the "elephant trunk" has lost the tip of it's trunk...

yeah, i was hoping it was intact. i'm always curious about those trunks on older krises; they have a certain look...

Quote:

Do you plan to give it a sheath?

hello detlef. no, i'm just gonna leave it au naturel, but if i'm always keeping an eye for original scabbards. hopefully, i'll come across for something that would fit this.

Quote:

I wonder if it had an asang-asang originally but early on was taken off.

i'm with you on this jose. but it appears to be that after it was removed, no one bothered to replace it. my thinking was, at that point, asang2x was probably a novelty somewhat

Battara · 12th August 2012, 04:19 PM

Also it more difficult to replace one than one might imagine (believe me I've done it plenty of times).

migueldiaz · 12th August 2012, 04:38 PM

very interesting, ron! thanks.

i'm particularly intrigued by the tang's square to semi-round cross section, because this 10th to 15th century visayan kris which was discussed somewhat extensively here in the forum already shows a square cross section (see illustration below).

on the other hand, i don't doubt the antiquity of the kris above.

but i'm no expert on krises. hence this visayan kris is being shown just for additional inputs ...

migueldiaz · 12th August 2012, 04:55 PM

for another quick reference, here's a 10th to 13th century northern mindanao gold hilt, where we see the 'elephant trunk' motif.

but my personal belief is that it's a bird's beak-mouth, given that the overall motif of philippine hilts then revolved around the sun, fire, and bird imagery (which all stem from our ancient ancestors' religion).

but anyways, the aim of this post is to merely show that that particular feature, whatever that is, has long been there (i.e., as early as 10th to 13th century).

kino · 12th August 2012, 04:59 PM

Nice find. Congrats.

I scour the local gun shows hoping to find such treasures....maybe one day....

It looks like your recent find hasn't gone thru a lot of sharpening, the blade looks like it still has a lot of meat. Wasn't used much or captured early on in it's life..puzzles, like the asang -asang. If they could only talk.

David · 12th August 2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

very interesting, ron! thanks.

i'm particularly intrigued by the tang's square to semi-round cross section, because this 10th to 15th century visayan kris which was discussed somewhat extensively here in the forum already shows a square cross section (see illustration below).

on the other hand, i don't doubt the antiquity of the kris above.

but i'm no expert on krises. hence this visayan kris is being shown just for additional inputs ...

Frankly Miguel, i am of the same mind as Alan here that without either a gandik or a gonjo this is not really a kris/keris.

11th August 2012, 01:37 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	there were a few things that was intriguing about this particular kris. one, it doesn't have an asang2x. that, by itself is no big deal, since we've seen krises missing these parts before. but the weird thing about this is, it appears that it never had an asang2x before. asang2x are normally attached one of two ways: outside the ferrule; which is then wrapped, or inside the ferrule, which you would normally see an indentation mark on the wooden part of the handle. since the handle was slightly loose, i decided to disassemble the whole thing. as you can see, there's no mark anywhere on the wooden part of the handle that it has an asang2x before. the ferrule looked relatively snug to the wood part, and it doesn't have an indentation mark usually left by a strip of metal anywhere. perhaps the handle could also be a later addition, in which the owner decided to disregard the asang2x. another pleasant surprise was the tang. theoretically, the oldest moro krises has round tang, similar to their indonesian counterparts. this one is an almost round, squarish actually, but still, it would have the possibility of spinning if it didn't have any stirrups to hold it in place. looking closely at the blade closest to the gangya, there's a very faint mark that it might have had a asang2x before, but it wasn't there long enough to leave an indentation or discoloration. was this particular kris then, during the transitional stage mentioned in the old threads? discuss... p.s. only part i've worked on so far was the pommel, and yes, it's ivory.. Attached Images

12th August 2012, 04:38 PM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	very interesting, ron! thanks. i'm particularly intrigued by the tang's square to semi-round cross section, because this 10th to 15th century visayan kris which was discussed somewhat extensively here in the forum already shows a square cross section (see illustration below). on the other hand, i don't doubt the antiquity of the kris above. but i'm no expert on krises. hence this visayan kris is being shown just for additional inputs ... Attached Images

12th August 2012, 04:55 PM	#8
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	for another quick reference, here's a 10th to 13th century northern mindanao gold hilt, where we see the 'elephant trunk' motif. but my personal belief is that it's a bird's beak-mouth, given that the overall motif of philippine hilts then revolved around the sun, fire, and bird imagery (which all stem from our ancient ancestors' religion). but anyways, the aim of this post is to merely show that that particular feature, whatever that is, has long been there (i.e., as early as 10th to 13th century). Attached Images

11th August 2012, 01:53 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Wow, nice find Ron. Maybe a "missing link" of sorts. Too bad that the the "elephant trunk" has lost the tip of it's trunk, but then, who cares with a find like this. I need to go to more gun shows...

11th August 2012, 03:39 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Very nice archaic blade! And beautiful patinated ivory pommel. Wouldn't be so sure that it never have had minimum one asang. The wrapped part of the handle seems modified at some point of it's history. Do you plan to give it a sheath? Regards, Detlef

11th August 2012, 06:11 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Great and interesting find! Great to find a tang like this. I wonder if it had an asang-asang originally but early on was taken off.

12th August 2012, 04:19 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Also it more difficult to replace one than one might imagine (believe me I've done it plenty of times).

12th August 2012, 04:59 PM	#9
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,018	Nice find. Congrats. I scour the local gun shows hoping to find such treasures....maybe one day.... It looks like your recent find hasn't gone thru a lot of sharpening, the blade looks like it still has a lot of meat. Wasn't used much or captured early on in it's life..puzzles, like the asang -asang. If they could only talk.