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9th August 2012, 03:07 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
A. Kattara for comments. from #300 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 B. The Omani Khanjar. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 Salaams Dom, Thank you for posting this detail. I know the author is well respected. May we have the full package of information to go with the pictures so we can put it into perspective please? It will be seen that it is easy to confuse Habaabi daggers with Omani. Both styles of Habaabi have the 7 rings and one is fatter whilst the other is quite slender in the body.They look like Omani Khanjars. The crown, however, tends to be slightly larger than the Omani. Typically the hilt has two facing large buttons with the pointed decoration often hidden under a central ferrule in mid hilt. The decorative style of the triangular net holding the lower scabbard steady on the belt is different in both styles. This weapon is discussed at The Omani Khanjar in some detail with photos. My hypothesis on this almost identical design is that the Habaabi design was taken from the circa 1840 Royal Khanjar style designed by The Persian princess and wife of Said bin Sultan who reigned 1804 to his death off Zanzibar in 1856. Sheherazad was her name. It is clear that no other Yemeni design exists with such strong similarity to an Omani Dagger (the area was Yemeni before circa 1920) and Scabbard and I quote the sea trade link and the proximity to Zanzibar and Muscat (and naturally the sea trade route between) as the main reason for the transmission of style.. I repeat that the two are easily confused.  Posting Butin would be a great asset to our library. Thank you Dom.  Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 9th August 2012 at 03:44 PM. |
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10th August 2012, 12:06 AM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
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Quote:
ok ... I shall do it, but previously ... I have to translate all comments ... from French to English  this is not the most exciting, but I gonna to do it, Inch'Allah  all the best à + Dom |
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10th August 2012, 12:04 PM
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#3 |
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Good day
as I didn't acquired my English, from an academic school, and as far as it's a very technical idiom used to describe edged weapons, the translation is a real chore ("pensum") also, I took the precaution to add the French version sorry if it's a little bit "rigmarole", I'm doing my best, but sometime even the best it's not enough ... I will present one per day ... thanks for your understanding  979 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX) Same blade, rather piqued by rust. horn handle, flourishing toward the blade and forming its hilt in the style of fifteenth-century Swiss daggers. The guard is surrounded by a silver ferrule which covers the heel of the blade and fits over the chape. This ferrule is decorated with filigree and the outside of the horn of the handle is topped with a tight sowing of silver nails. Wood scabbard covered with black cloth decorated with trimmings of silver (both pretty tired). small silver locket, and silver chape more developed, and decorated with filigree work similar to the ferrule of the handle. This scabbard still bears the four silver rings which serve to secure it the belt and a part of the belt with its silver buckle. The scabbard for this type of Djambyia, instead of following the curve of the blade like its predecessors, is bent at right angles Complete weapon, tired, but interesting nonetheless because of the scarcity of Arab weapons Long. : 0.315 - Blade: 0.205 979 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX) Même lame, assez piquée par la rouille. Poignée en corne s’épanouissant vers la lame et formant son pommeau dans le genre des dagues suisses du XVè siècle. La garde est entourée d’une virole en argent qui recouvre le talon de la lame et s’emboîte sur la chape du fourreau. Cette virole est décorée de filigranes et la face extérieure de la corne de la poignée est garnie d’un semis serré de clous d’argent. Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir décoré de passementeries d’argent (les deux assez fatigués). Courte bouterolle en argent uni et chape plus développe en argent et décorée d’un travail de filigrane semblable à celui de la virole de la poignée. Ce fourreau porte encore les quatre anneaux d’argent qui servent à l’assujettir à la ceinture et une partie de la ceinture avec sa boucle en argent. Le fourreau de type Djambyia, au lieu de suivre la courbe de la lame comme les précédentes, se courbe à angle droit Arme complète, fatiguée, mais intéressante néanmoins en raison de la rareté des armes arabes Long. : 0,315 – Lame : 0,205 ************************************************** *********** 980 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX) Blade same model, but better preserved. Horn handle almost disappearing under the decor in silver filigree. Pommel trefoiled similarly decorated. The heel of the blade is surrounded by the silver ferrule that covers the lowest part of the flourishing of the handle and which engages the sheath: the collar is also decorated with filigree Wood scabbard covered with black cloth and decorated like the previous, with silver trimmings. Silver chape, highly developed on the outside with the same filigree decor. In the middle of the scabbard on a sort of central pad, four strongly silver rings forged, retained by silver filigrees, used to attach the weapon on the front part of the belt. From the collection Moser, Charlottenfels Castle, Schaffhausen. Ancient weapon, rare and quite complete, but slightly tired. Long. : Lame 0.305: 0.190 980 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX) Lame de même modèle, mais mieux conservée. Poignée en corne disparaissant presque sous le décor en filigrane d’argent. Pommeau trilobé pareillement décoré. Le talon de la lame est entouré de la virole d’argent qui recouvre l’épanouissement inférieur de la poignée et dans laquelle vient s’engager le fourreau : cette virole est aussi décorée de filigranes Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir et comme le précédent décoré de passementeries d’argent. Chape en argent, très développé du coté extérieur avec le même décor filigrané. Au milieu du fourreau sur une sorte de coussinet, quatre forts anneaux en argent forgés retenus par des filigranes d’argent, servent à fixer l’arme sur le devant de la ceinture. Provient de la collection Moser, château de Charlottenfels, Schaffhouse. Arme ancienne, rare et bien complète, mais légèrement fatiguée. Long. : 0,305 Lame : 0,190 à + Dom Last edited by Dom; 11th August 2012 at 11:09 AM. |
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10th August 2012, 03:40 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
I think we will give Buttin the benefit of the doubt in this case! However, it appears too narrow in the body to be Omani... but I rest my case at this time on this item as it may be because of the photo quality in the original document.. It is absolutely excellent to have your translation and I thank you for adding this vital research to Forum. Salaams, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 10th August 2012 at 04:04 PM. |
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11th August 2012, 12:36 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
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Quote:
all these consignments were made there ± 110 years ago, it's easy to imagine, that "Buttin" hadn't our communication facilities to corroborate his informations, not like us actually with the "net"  "Buttin" has mentioned often, that some Islamic weapons are rare, (what it's not any more the case in our days ...) but, travelers to Islamic countries of Middle-East, in this century was very few, and some countries was more or less closed to Western peoples, or at least for non-Muslims that might explain a little, imprecisions or perhaps even errors on some of his notes I am well aware of that, but that don't challenge the value bibliographic of the book, in general I will not allow me (I don't have the quality) to comment the written notes of "Buttin", even if I found at my point of view sometimes strange interpretations I strive to meet in my translation, to the mind, against the form of text, no more what I find most interesting in this book, is not so much the comments of "Buttin", but physically, how they was looking like, these islamic edged weapons found about 150 years ago this to me (us) can attempt to determine the oldest weapons forms, to the most recent, however ... if possible all the best my Friend à + Dom |
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11th August 2012, 03:26 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Dom~ You are correct indeed about the difficulties of research on these weapons at that time. Actually getting to visit some of the countries over 100 years ago would have been at best dangerous and even in the 1940s and 1950s travel into the Interior of Oman was extremely dodgey... according to Thesiger. The lack of information combined with the state of the Oman which was in decline until 1970 must have made study of this sort almost impossible. I find it quite difficult even now! What must it have been like then? It is very convenient to be able to present an item for discussion to Forum and instantly reach many hundreds of enthusiastic specialists and scholars such as yourself who are willing to give up their time to promote our chosen field. I had hoped that Buttins work would have passed copyright by now as has Burtons work which is freely available on the web but I see that Buttin has been rewritten under his grandson quite recently...It goes on my vast list of books I must have ! One thing is certain that what Khanjars looked like 100 years ago here in Oman .... for sure thats what they looked like 500 years ago and earlier. Thank you Dom... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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12th August 2012, 06:19 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
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981 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)
Blade always the same type as the previous, but with a curious feature. It is sharpen with a hammer as well as scythe blades, hammered the convex edge toward the outer side and concave toward on the interior side. Hilt of the richest model, entirely in silver and decorated with applied of filigrees very fine and very elegant. The pommel has a particular form with two conical ears on the side, turned in towards the handle. The hilt, same "encapage" for the scabbard upper part, as well as two previous weapons. (Cf. "encapage" old French word, completely obsolete, want to mean, in reference to the two previous descriptions, "silver ferrule that covers the lowest part of the flourishing of the handle and which engages the sheath: the collar is also decorated with filigree" The scabbard covered by red leather sheath on the interior side, is, on the outer side, fully in silver gilt covered with silver filigrees as the handle. The chape and the locket, draw for one a square, and the other a trapezoid, with filigree designs going in diminishing. The middle of the scabbard shows a drawing of scales repelled. Seven silver rings wrought used to attach the weapon to the belt are ligatured with silver cords. Weapon in excellent condition and extremely rare Long: 0.32 - Blade: 0.200 See Moser catalog, No. 544, pl. XXI 981 – POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia), XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX) Lame toujours du même type que les précédentes, mais présentant une particularité curieuse. Elle est aiguisée au marteau comme les lames de faux, le tranchant convexe martelé du coté extérieur et le concave du coté intérieur. Poignée du modèle le plus riche, entièrement en argent et décoré d’appliques de filigranes très fines et très élégantes. Le pommeau de forme particulière à deux oreilles coniques sur le coté, rabattues vers la poignée. À la garde, même encapage du haut du fourreau qu’aux deux armes précédentes. Le fourreau en cuir rouge du coté intérieur, est, du coté extérieur, entièrement en argent doré revêtu de filigranes d’argent comme la poignée. La chape et la bouterolles dessinent l’une un carré, l’autre un trapèze, en filigrane à dessins décroissants. Le milieu du fourreau présente un dessin en écailles repoussées. Sept anneaux en argent forgé pour fixer l’arme à la ceinture sont ligaturés avec des cordelettes en argent. Arme en excellent état et de très grande rareté Long : 0,32 - Lame : 0,200 Cf. catalogue Moser, N° 544, pl. XXI ************************************************** *********** 982 - ARAB DAGGER (Djambyia), eighteenth century or early nineteenth (Pl. XXX) Wide blade Arabic forged: double edged, midrib softened, but very salient, over the entire length. Straight heel, the blade is curved sharply to the middle, and tapers from there to provide the tip. Horn handle, flourishing along the lines normal to the blade and form a pommel in axe head. It is on its outer face coated with a silver plate decorated with three rosettes repelled. Unlike previous ones, this is the low part of the ferrule of handle that enters in the chape of the scabbard. The wooden scabbard covered with brown leather does not have the right angle bend, but also moreover much more curved than the previous ones, in a regular circle arc. It has a chape engraved silver, filigreed, and nielloed on the outside face and three roses in silver repelled. This scabbard is caught between two strips of leather combined with a cloth belt. The outer strap is decorated with an engraved silver plate and silver thread in spiral ; Weapon well complete and in fair condition; Long: 0.290 Blade: 0.185 982 – POIGNARD ARABE (Djambyia), XVIIIè siècle ou début XIXè (Pl. XXX) Lame très large de forge arabe : deux tranchants, arête centrale adoucie mais très saillante sur toute la longueur. Droite au talon, la lame se courbe brusquement vers le milieu, et se rétrécit depuis là pour fournir la pointe. Poignée en corne s’épanouissant suivant les lignes habituelles vers la lame et formant un pommeau en forme de fer de hache. Elle est sur sa face extérieure revêtue d’une plaque d’argent décorée de trois rosaces repoussées. Contrairement aux précédents, c’est le bas de la virole de la poignée qui s’engage dans la chape du fourreau. Le fourreau en bois recouvert de cuir marron n’a pas le coude à angle droit, mais se courbe plus encore d’ailleurs que les précédents, en un arc de cercle régulier. Il porte une chape en argent gravé, filigrané, et niellé sur sa face extérieure et trois rosaces en argent repoussé. Ce fourreau est pris entre deux lanières de cuir réunies à une ceinture d’étoffe. La lanière extérieure est décorée d’une plaque en argent gravé et de fils d’argent en spirale. Arme bien complète et en assez bon état ; Long : 0,290 Lame : 0,185 ************************************************** *********** end of the commitment à + Dom |
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12th August 2012, 06:56 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
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Quote:
in France, the Law is very clear, - is reputed from public field, whatever it is and have been wrote or published since over 70 years started after the death of the writter - Charles Buttin, died before that his book be published, in fact it's his son François, using all his father's notes, who has published the "Catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes européennes et orientales de Charles Buttin - this catalogue has been printed and published in 1933 (Rumilly), that mean that in 2004, no measures of copyrighted - the book with me, is one from the first impression, with a special dedication (not for me - dated 1956) from François Buttin his son a priori, I see no impediment, at what I did excepted that the book has a cost-prohibitive  and, to do a complete copy, will be not fair at all for those who bought it all the best à + Dom |
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