Sword hilt for ID

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2012, 05:39 AM

I guess I better turn in my birdwatchers badge

didnt notice the beak features. Still the sword itself seems very colonial, and perhaps further south into Central America or further? While certainly not entirely faithful to the actual eagle image, the remainder of the heavy feathered plumage is similar to that on the Mexican emblem eagle. The beak as you note does seem rather bluntly placed, reminds me a bit of the toucan, but of course not quite as pronounced beak.
Perhaps the perception of the eagle with more southern Americas influence?
Otherwise, what sort of bird might it be?

fernando · 9th August 2012, 01:35 PM

You guys are fantastic. I don't know how to thank you for your precious input

.

M ELEY · 15th August 2012, 07:11 PM

I think that the Spanish colonial/Mexican opinion is the closest until someone presents material to refute it. Under my previous response, I mentioned American eagle-heads with 'very similar' form and I'll stick by with it, in that some of those pieces in the Lattimer collection are obviously later Mexican pieces. Your friend would benefit from that book by Hartlzer I mentioned earlier.

fernando · 15th August 2012, 08:55 PM

Thank you Mark.
And well noted

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th August 2012, 05:13 PM

Salaams all~ Great thread and some classic answers made this a fascinating project to watch ... I think most posts hit the nail on the head in pretty well all aspects of this quandry ~ I would like to add this http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/3...than-face-face which perhaps answers one or two puzzles as to why this is a Mexican Eagle but why that eagle doesnt actually hunt live animals all the time or why it doesnt look like a full on eagle (Atlantia) It is true it rather looks like a seed or nut eater beak...However it is a carrion eater. In fact it will eat snakes but snakes that are usually already dead.

What I find interesting is the peculiar horn grip on the other example more like the Arabian style of Hawks head though obviously not arabian as it is VOC Dutch... but the crossguards !! The Crossguards on both weapons are almost identical.

Therefor is not perhaps the #1 weapon Dutch also ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hotspur · 16th August 2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I think that the Spanish colonial/Mexican opinion is the closest until someone presents material to refute it. Under my previous response, I mentioned American eagle-heads with 'very similar' form and I'll stick by with it, in that some of those pieces in the Lattimer collection are obviously later Mexican pieces. Your friend would benefit from that book by Hartlzer I mentioned earlier.

Quote:

Plate 327, the closest to our eagle with the exact beak pattern (almost ibis-like), eye and feather pattern on a sword by William Ball of Baltimore (1763-1815). His other swords, listed in plates above, all extremely similar.

Along with having the book in hand, I also have many scans of the eagle and bird pommels (indeed could post all the examples you have listed). I also find no examples in Hartzler's book as obviously Mexican, nor listed as such. Again, I would continue to think it remiss for any to use Ball's work as relevant to the sword in the original post to this thread and indeed the only similarities that of birds with feathers. The same true for the Medicus collection book in reference to eagles found there.

Cheers

GC

Atlantia · 17th August 2012, 08:35 AM

The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like.
The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot.
I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.

fernando · 17th August 2012, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like.
The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot.
I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.

I would be on the side of those suggesting that the beak (and head ... and possibly neck) in "my" example, is that of a specific bird and not just an general figure.
On the other hand and, assuming i have no ornithologist notions at all, once rejecting the eagle, ibis and parrot are not more fortunate suggestions

.

Hotspur · 17th August 2012, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like.
The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot.
I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.

I have enough of a picture libray that I can match a good many in fair comparison. The one that has been mentioned as Dutch and then mention of kastane in this thread prompts one from my unsorted folder.

I was really a hold out about the influences of world travels reaching Europe and the kastane bridge particularly until seeing a magnificent portrait of an Englishman in battle of the English civil war with a truly serious kastane hilt.

So anyway, this one for the other hanger of the thread

I will refrain from posting all the Shriner's scimitars variations I have come across

There are a number of full brass hilts of eagle and bird form associated with the Americas and my picture files (many thousands) for those of North America (ie USA) can be broken down pretty easily between the bird and eagle types.

It is the bird head pommels of generally English patterns that the Lattimer collection fill the pages along with the true crested eagles. As important in that collection and presentation are the pages of Roman and knighlty form pommels.

I found Jim's classification of toucan quite apt and had thought that immediately myself before he wrote it (strange minds do sometimes think alike). My own classifications of three major players in American Eaglehead Pommels is broken down to Larry, Curly and Moe of the three stooges (Osborn, Bolton and Ketand) so I can appreciate whatever one may call an item but the bird in question beginning this thread is none of those.

Cheers

GC

Cheers

GC

Atlantia · 17th August 2012, 11:39 PM

Hi Glen,

I also thought it reminiscent of a Toucan funnily enough.
So what's your conclusion?
I know the Roman hilts that you speak of, but again they couldn't be miscast as parrots... well the ones I'm familiar with anyway.
Even the quite stylised ones are recognisable as Eagles.
Hold on I've got one somewhere.....

Edit:
Even when the form is quite stylised as in this one, it's usually still recognisable as an eagle. As in my dagger pommel below.

16th August 2012, 05:13 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all~ Great thread and some classic answers made this a fascinating project to watch ... I think most posts hit the nail on the head in pretty well all aspects of this quandry ~ I would like to add this http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/3...than-face-face which perhaps answers one or two puzzles as to why this is a Mexican Eagle but why that eagle doesnt actually hunt live animals all the time or why it doesnt look like a full on eagle (Atlantia) It is true it rather looks like a seed or nut eater beak...However it is a carrion eater. In fact it will eat snakes but snakes that are usually already dead. What I find interesting is the peculiar horn grip on the other example more like the Arabian style of Hawks head though obviously not arabian as it is VOC Dutch... but the crossguards !! The Crossguards on both weapons are almost identical. Therefor is not perhaps the #1 weapon Dutch also ? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 16th August 2012 at 05:41 PM.

17th August 2012, 11:39 PM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Glen, I also thought it reminiscent of a Toucan funnily enough. So what's your conclusion? I know the Roman hilts that you speak of, but again they couldn't be miscast as parrots... well the ones I'm familiar with anyway. Even the quite stylised ones are recognisable as Eagles. Hold on I've got one somewhere..... Edit: Even when the form is quite stylised as in this one, it's usually still recognisable as an eagle. As in my dagger pommel below. Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 17th August 2012 at 11:52 PM.

9th August 2012, 05:39 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	I guess I better turn in my birdwatchers badge didnt notice the beak features. Still the sword itself seems very colonial, and perhaps further south into Central America or further? While certainly not entirely faithful to the actual eagle image, the remainder of the heavy feathered plumage is similar to that on the Mexican emblem eagle. The beak as you note does seem rather bluntly placed, reminds me a bit of the toucan, but of course not quite as pronounced beak. Perhaps the perception of the eagle with more southern Americas influence? Otherwise, what sort of bird might it be? Attached Images

9th August 2012, 01:35 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	You guys are fantastic. I don't know how to thank you for your precious input .

15th August 2012, 07:11 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,153	I think that the Spanish colonial/Mexican opinion is the closest until someone presents material to refute it. Under my previous response, I mentioned American eagle-heads with 'very similar' form and I'll stick by with it, in that some of those pieces in the Lattimer collection are obviously later Mexican pieces. Your friend would benefit from that book by Hartlzer I mentioned earlier.

15th August 2012, 08:55 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Mark. And well noted

17th August 2012, 08:35 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like. The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot. I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.