Sword hilt for ID

M ELEY · 7th August 2012, 10:53 PM

Hello gents-
Just wanted to concur with Jean and Jim, adding that although the form is odd, it could also be colonial American-
Swords with this exact pommel type, including raised feather patterns, can be seen in the Lattimer collection ('Silver-Mounted Swords' by Danial Hartzler), plates 294, 298, 325, 326, 328, 332, 334, 343.
Plate 327, the closest to our eagle with the exact beak pattern (almost ibis-like), eye and feather pattern on a sword by William Ball of Baltimore (1763-1815). His other swords, listed in plates above, all extremely similar. The reason Jim might have hit it on the head is that many/most of Ball's swords bear Spanish blades with the motto- "No Me Saques Sin Razon", etc, etc. Thus, we could have a colonial Spanish sword or one made in New Spain for the American market ca. 1790-1820's?? Nice sword...

fernando · 8th August 2012, 02:48 PM

Thank you all Gentleman,
I will transmit your precious thoughts to my friend and will endeavour to post pictures of the whole sword within soon.

Hotspur · 8th August 2012, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello gents-
Just wanted to concur with Jean and Jim, adding that although the form is odd, it could also be colonial American-
Swords with this exact pommel type, including raised feather patterns, can be seen in the Lattimer collection ('Silver-Mounted Swords' by Danial Hartzler), plates 294, 298, 325, 326, 328, 332, 334, 343.
Plate 327, the closest to our eagle with the exact beak pattern (almost ibis-like), eye and feather pattern on a sword by William Ball of Baltimore (1763-1815). His other swords, listed in plates above, all extremely similar. The reason Jim might have hit it on the head is that many/most of Ball's swords bear Spanish blades with the motto- "No Me Saques Sin Razon", etc, etc. Thus, we could have a colonial Spanish sword or one made in New Spain for the American market ca. 1790-1820's?? Nice sword...

Sorry, I must disagree no matter how kindly it can be put. The Ball examples (indeed all the pictures you reference) are anything but exacting and are all hollow floating pommels. The beaks are all sharper, less hooked and most of those examples with less than oriental eyes. Indeed, aside from both appearing to be birds heads with feathers, there is really no direct correlation at all. I feel the association to Ball (while noted in my own appreciation) is just plain wrong in this case.

However, the blade revealed and described does have similarity to the shorter hangers of colonial America. That is a big however though and truly nothing in Neumann or the Lattimer collection matches this cast brass bird head. there are though a number of odd Latin/Mexican American countries that may have been responsible (while I can see the quite oriental look to it).

Just to add (as I do like eagles) there is nothing in the Medicus collection of eagles relevant to the bird of this thread.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2012, 12:17 AM

As noted, eagle heads were keenly popular in America post Revolutionary War and well into the 19th century, many of the well known 'eagleheads' were from around the end of the Mexican War (1846). The style of this eagle is indeed unusual and the profound presence of feathers to me seems inclined more to Mexican Republic type influence. The Mexican emblem is of course the eagle, and highly feathered regalia traditional Aztec representation. The blade does seem European hanger in form, the marks as yet are unknown to me but seem somewhat familiar.
The alternating quillons are not remarkably significant as a specific identifier as they were of course common on many forms of hangers, bayonets and swords throughout Europe, on colonial swords in many spheres, and are familiar on the ring hilt daos of China.

The Dutch VOC sword is of the form well known in hangers of 17th-18th century and remind me of examples resembling kastanes as well as various lion heads etc. and in ivory.

For some reason I cannot recall any example of eaglehead on an Islamic weapon, though of course theoretically some highly stylized hilts are presumed to possibly represent various birds.

Atlantia · 9th August 2012, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As noted, eagle heads were keenly popular in America post Revolutionary War and well into the 19th century, many of the well known 'eagleheads' were from around the end of the Mexican War (1846). The style of this eagle is indeed unusual and the profound presence of feathers to me seems inclined more to Mexican Republic type influence. The Mexican emblem is of course the eagle, and highly feathered regalia traditional Aztec representation. The blade does seem European hanger in form, the marks as yet are unknown to me but seem somewhat familiar.
The alternating quillons are not remarkably significant as a specific identifier as they were of course common on many forms of hangers, bayonets and swords throughout Europe, on colonial swords in many spheres, and are familiar on the ring hilt daos of China.

The Dutch VOC sword is of the form well known in hangers of 17th-18th century and remind me of examples resembling kastanes as well as various lion heads etc. and in ivory.

For some reason I cannot recall any example of eaglehead on an Islamic weapon, though of course theoretically some highly stylized hilts are presumed to possibly represent various birds.

Hey buddy,

Are we sure Nandos sword is an eagle?

It doesn't look very 'bird of prey' to me. And there is no distinctive 'lip' around the beak. Also it doesn't extend back under the eye, it's stuck on the 'face' like a nut cracker or seed eater.
Thats why I think it might be a good clue.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2012, 05:39 AM

I guess I better turn in my birdwatchers badge

didnt notice the beak features. Still the sword itself seems very colonial, and perhaps further south into Central America or further? While certainly not entirely faithful to the actual eagle image, the remainder of the heavy feathered plumage is similar to that on the Mexican emblem eagle. The beak as you note does seem rather bluntly placed, reminds me a bit of the toucan, but of course not quite as pronounced beak.
Perhaps the perception of the eagle with more southern Americas influence?
Otherwise, what sort of bird might it be?

fernando · 9th August 2012, 01:35 PM

You guys are fantastic. I don't know how to thank you for your precious input

.

M ELEY · 15th August 2012, 07:11 PM

I think that the Spanish colonial/Mexican opinion is the closest until someone presents material to refute it. Under my previous response, I mentioned American eagle-heads with 'very similar' form and I'll stick by with it, in that some of those pieces in the Lattimer collection are obviously later Mexican pieces. Your friend would benefit from that book by Hartlzer I mentioned earlier.

9th August 2012, 05:39 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,570	I guess I better turn in my birdwatchers badge didnt notice the beak features. Still the sword itself seems very colonial, and perhaps further south into Central America or further? While certainly not entirely faithful to the actual eagle image, the remainder of the heavy feathered plumage is similar to that on the Mexican emblem eagle. The beak as you note does seem rather bluntly placed, reminds me a bit of the toucan, but of course not quite as pronounced beak. Perhaps the perception of the eagle with more southern Americas influence? Otherwise, what sort of bird might it be? Attached Images

7th August 2012, 10:53 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hello gents- Just wanted to concur with Jean and Jim, adding that although the form is odd, it could also be colonial American- Swords with this exact pommel type, including raised feather patterns, can be seen in the Lattimer collection ('Silver-Mounted Swords' by Danial Hartzler), plates 294, 298, 325, 326, 328, 332, 334, 343. Plate 327, the closest to our eagle with the exact beak pattern (almost ibis-like), eye and feather pattern on a sword by William Ball of Baltimore (1763-1815). His other swords, listed in plates above, all extremely similar. The reason Jim might have hit it on the head is that many/most of Ball's swords bear Spanish blades with the motto- "No Me Saques Sin Razon", etc, etc. Thus, we could have a colonial Spanish sword or one made in New Spain for the American market ca. 1790-1820's?? Nice sword...

8th August 2012, 02:48 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you all Gentleman, I will transmit your precious thoughts to my friend and will endeavour to post pictures of the whole sword within soon.

9th August 2012, 12:17 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,570	As noted, eagle heads were keenly popular in America post Revolutionary War and well into the 19th century, many of the well known 'eagleheads' were from around the end of the Mexican War (1846). The style of this eagle is indeed unusual and the profound presence of feathers to me seems inclined more to Mexican Republic type influence. The Mexican emblem is of course the eagle, and highly feathered regalia traditional Aztec representation. The blade does seem European hanger in form, the marks as yet are unknown to me but seem somewhat familiar. The alternating quillons are not remarkably significant as a specific identifier as they were of course common on many forms of hangers, bayonets and swords throughout Europe, on colonial swords in many spheres, and are familiar on the ring hilt daos of China. The Dutch VOC sword is of the form well known in hangers of 17th-18th century and remind me of examples resembling kastanes as well as various lion heads etc. and in ivory. For some reason I cannot recall any example of eaglehead on an Islamic weapon, though of course theoretically some highly stylized hilts are presumed to possibly represent various birds.

9th August 2012, 01:35 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	You guys are fantastic. I don't know how to thank you for your precious input .

15th August 2012, 07:11 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	I think that the Spanish colonial/Mexican opinion is the closest until someone presents material to refute it. Under my previous response, I mentioned American eagle-heads with 'very similar' form and I'll stick by with it, in that some of those pieces in the Lattimer collection are obviously later Mexican pieces. Your friend would benefit from that book by Hartlzer I mentioned earlier.