Sword hilt for ID

[fernando]

As i said Gene, no more pictures .That's why i tried to compensate with the blade description .
I know this is a chalenge; hoping the hilt is self speaking .

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

As i said Gene, no more pictures .That's why i tried to compensate with the blade description .
I know this is a chalenge; hoping the hilt is self speaking .

Ah, well we have an old saying, "What's good for the Goose"
So I'll be posting a blade stamp I want to identify now

As for your sword.
The hilt looks later 18thC to me. But pictures of the blade might change that opinion.
My initial thoughts are that the animal headed full bronze hilt with 'S' guard puts me in mind of the private bandmans swords from that era. But there is something almost 'hunting hanger' about it.

The Bird has a very 'exotic' look to it. My feeling is European but colonial.

[Jim McDougall]

I think Gene has a good observation here, this does appear of European form and quite possibly Spanish colonial /Mexican. The striations in the guard are mindful of the scallop shell, often seen in Spanish themes. I cannot see anything here that suggests Islamic.

[M ELEY]

Hello gents-
Just wanted to concur with Jean and Jim, adding that although the form is odd, it could also be colonial American-
Swords with this exact pommel type, including raised feather patterns, can be seen in the Lattimer collection ('Silver-Mounted Swords' by Danial Hartzler), plates 294, 298, 325, 326, 328, 332, 334, 343.
Plate 327, the closest to our eagle with the exact beak pattern (almost ibis-like), eye and feather pattern on a sword by William Ball of Baltimore (1763-1815). His other swords, listed in plates above, all extremely similar. The reason Jim might have hit it on the head is that many/most of Ball's swords bear Spanish blades with the motto- "No Me Saques Sin Razon", etc, etc. Thus, we could have a colonial Spanish sword or one made in New Spain for the American market ca. 1790-1820's?? Nice sword...

[fernando]

Thank you all Gentleman,
I will transmit your precious thoughts to my friend and will endeavour to post pictures of the whole sword within soon.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello gents-
Just wanted to concur with Jean and Jim, adding that although the form is odd, it could also be colonial American-
Swords with this exact pommel type, including raised feather patterns, can be seen in the Lattimer collection ('Silver-Mounted Swords' by Danial Hartzler), plates 294, 298, 325, 326, 328, 332, 334, 343.
Plate 327, the closest to our eagle with the exact beak pattern (almost ibis-like), eye and feather pattern on a sword by William Ball of Baltimore (1763-1815). His other swords, listed in plates above, all extremely similar. The reason Jim might have hit it on the head is that many/most of Ball's swords bear Spanish blades with the motto- "No Me Saques Sin Razon", etc, etc. Thus, we could have a colonial Spanish sword or one made in New Spain for the American market ca. 1790-1820's?? Nice sword...

Sorry, I must disagree no matter how kindly it can be put. The Ball examples (indeed all the pictures you reference) are anything but exacting and are all hollow floating pommels. The beaks are all sharper, less hooked and most of those examples with less than oriental eyes. Indeed, aside from both appearing to be birds heads with feathers, there is really no direct correlation at all. I feel the association to Ball (while noted in my own appreciation) is just plain wrong in this case.

However, the blade revealed and described does have similarity to the shorter hangers of colonial America. That is a big however though and truly nothing in Neumann or the Lattimer collection matches this cast brass bird head. there are though a number of odd Latin/Mexican American countries that may have been responsible (while I can see the quite oriental look to it).

Just to add (as I do like eagles) there is nothing in the Medicus collection of eagles relevant to the bird of this thread.

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

As noted, eagle heads were keenly popular in America post Revolutionary War and well into the 19th century, many of the well known 'eagleheads' were from around the end of the Mexican War (1846). The style of this eagle is indeed unusual and the profound presence of feathers to me seems inclined more to Mexican Republic type influence. The Mexican emblem is of course the eagle, and highly feathered regalia traditional Aztec representation. The blade does seem European hanger in form, the marks as yet are unknown to me but seem somewhat familiar.
The alternating quillons are not remarkably significant as a specific identifier as they were of course common on many forms of hangers, bayonets and swords throughout Europe, on colonial swords in many spheres, and are familiar on the ring hilt daos of China.

The Dutch VOC sword is of the form well known in hangers of 17th-18th century and remind me of examples resembling kastanes as well as various lion heads etc. and in ivory.

For some reason I cannot recall any example of eaglehead on an Islamic weapon, though of course theoretically some highly stylized hilts are presumed to possibly represent various birds.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As noted, eagle heads were keenly popular in America post Revolutionary War and well into the 19th century, many of the well known 'eagleheads' were from around the end of the Mexican War (1846). The style of this eagle is indeed unusual and the profound presence of feathers to me seems inclined more to Mexican Republic type influence. The Mexican emblem is of course the eagle, and highly feathered regalia traditional Aztec representation. The blade does seem European hanger in form, the marks as yet are unknown to me but seem somewhat familiar.
The alternating quillons are not remarkably significant as a specific identifier as they were of course common on many forms of hangers, bayonets and swords throughout Europe, on colonial swords in many spheres, and are familiar on the ring hilt daos of China.

The Dutch VOC sword is of the form well known in hangers of 17th-18th century and remind me of examples resembling kastanes as well as various lion heads etc. and in ivory.

For some reason I cannot recall any example of eaglehead on an Islamic weapon, though of course theoretically some highly stylized hilts are presumed to possibly represent various birds.

Hey buddy,

Are we sure Nandos sword is an eagle?

It doesn't look very 'bird of prey' to me. And there is no distinctive 'lip' around the beak. Also it doesn't extend back under the eye, it's stuck on the 'face' like a nut cracker or seed eater.
Thats why I think it might be a good clue.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Ah, well we have an old saying, "What's good for the Goose" ...

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

LOL sorry, haven't you heard that one?
"What's good for the goose is good for the Gander"


I didn't realise it was OK to post incomplete pictures of items when asking for ID's until you posted this hilt.

Which is good because now I can post that blade stamp I wanted to identify.


On the subject of your hilt I think the bird has to be the big clue.
It's so distintive and exotic.

Again I'm reminded of the cast bronze stylised 'beast head' hilts of the west Indies bandsmens swords from the 19thC.

But for some reason this one makes me think VOC/Dutch east indies. Even though as has been said, it does have a Spanish/S.A feel to it

Edit:
Not the same, but possibly something approaching it is this Dutch east india co sword, dated by the dealer to cicra 1620 (?).

[fernando]

Thanks for the picture of the Dutch India example and added suggestions, Gene .

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL sorry, haven't you heard that one?
"What's good for the goose is good for the Gander"
I didn't realise it was OK to post incomplete pictures of items when asking for ID's until you posted this hilt.
Which is good because now I can post that blade stamp I wanted to identify. ...

I confess i haven't heard of that one before, but i have googled for it before i posted my 'confused' smily. My doubt wasn't the meaning of the saying but the logic for you having used it.
The issue is not being or not O.K. to post pictures of partial items, but to encourage the upload of pictures of the full piece, if one is able to get them , for better appreciation and more well based identification ... and for the sake of more solid material for the forum archives. It is not prohibited to post parts of a weapon, if you don't have access to the rest of them, or even if you only have that part.
In this specific case, pictures of the full sword and a close up of the blade marks were surpringly achieved in no time and here they are. It should be added that the blade has a false edge in last section.
Perhaps through the marks (symbols) we can have you guys to extend your comments on the typology and provenance of this sword.
... for which i would be thankfull.


.

[Atlantia]

Found a pic of the rest of that sword:

[M ELEY]

Nice pics of both swords. Gene, I like this Dutch hanger very much, especially the lion motifs carved into the ivory hilt. Back to Fernando's sword. Having seen the blade, which is also a classic hanger pattern, I stick by my original opinion of American, possibly made in New Spain for the market. Hartzler's book really is a valuable source, with multiple pics of eagle-hilts from the original Medicus collection plus many 'one-offs' like this one. Most colonial Spanish swords didn't have hanger-type blades, but more of the straight espada types. The few I've seen with curved blades were either massively long, or of a more crude construction. Not so sure about those marks-
It should be noted that the two most common types of weapons with eagle-type hilts in this time period were American and/or New Spain/Mexican.