Paul Weller & Indian Weapons

[VANDOO]

I CHECKED OUT THE TRISHUL AND CAME UP WITH THESE PICTURES GOOD OLD WIKIPEDIA. THIS IS A WEAPON BUT HAS EVEN STRONGER RELIGIOUS CONNECTIONS AS IT IS CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH GODS FROM SEVERAL RELIGIONS.
IN THE WEST WE JUST CALL IT THE TRIDENT AND THOUGH WE HAVE NO ACTUAL HISTORIC WEAPON OF ITS TYPE WE DO HAVE THE TRIDENT CLASS SUBMARINES. NO PICTURES OF SUBS THOUGH AS THAT GOES OFF TOPIC COOL BUT TOO CLOSE TO SCOOTERS

1.PICTURE OF A STATUE OF SHIVA WITH TRISHUL
2.PIC. OF THE SYMBOL OF THE CHAKRI DYNASTY, ROYAL HOUSE OF THAILAND. IT FEATURES THE TRISUL AS WELL AS ANOTHER WEAPON THE SUDARSHANA CHAKRA.
3. PIC A STYLIZED FORM ON TOP OF WAT ARUN MENORAU
4.DRAWING OF THE TRISUL
5.PIC. OFFERINGS TO GUNA DEVI

[Atlantia]

Hi Barry.

Europe does have a historical context for the trident. Neptune/Poseidon carries a Trident and in the UK depictions of Britannia with her trident are pretty much everywhere.
The Romans famously loved Gladiators armed with net and trident (retiarius).

Across India the Trisul with it's distinctive form shows up all over the place. Remember this:

[spiral]

I wonder if the Britannia trident was like many european pole arms based on peasents tools converted to weapons? Perhaps originaly a fish spear? Britannia rules the waves etc.... {hence the barbs to of course.}

which also may explain the Roman gladiators using it combined with a net?

spiral

[fearn]

I saw a reference that the Okinawan sai (tjabang, etc) occurred in India and was known as a trisul. I assume this was a miscue on the part of the author. Has anyone seen an Indian sai? (basically, a bar club with the forked guards?

Best,

F

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE SOME OTHER EXAMPLES OF TRISHUL / TRIDENT FORMS.
# 1. CHINESE SWORD BREAKER
2. 3, 4, BALI TRISHUL
5. JAPANESE SWORD CATCHER
6. INDONESIAN TRIDENT BLADE
7. TWO CEYLON SPEAR
8. INDONESIAN TRIDENT.

THERE IS A CHINESE POLE ARM OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A TIGER SPEAR THAT IS A TRIDENT FORM BUT I HAVEN'T LOCATED A PICTURE YET.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by spiral

I wonder if the Britannia trident was like many european pole arms based on peasents tools converted to weapons? Perhaps originaly a fish spear? Britannia rules the waves etc.... {hence the barbs to of course.}

which also may explain the Roman gladiators using it combined with a net?

spiral

Hi Mate,

You're bang-on I think with the Roman 'Retiarius'. It was a parody of fishing I believe.
You see! I always said fishing was a 'blood sport'

I'm not sure about the symbolism of Britannia.
If memory serves the depictions of her on Roman coins are bare headed, not wearing that Corinthian helmet that we always associate her with.
I'm not even sure if the trident isn't a later addition come to think of it.
I'd never though of the connection between Poseidon and Britannia as ruler of oceans with their tridents.
Good thought, makes sense.

[spiral]

Hi Gene,

Didnt even know they were called 'Retiarius' in truth, but internt search agrees it was a parody of fishing indeed! Weighted nets, tridents etc...

cheers,
J

[fearn]

Thinking about it, we've got a number of different influences going on with tridents. These include:

--multipronged and barbed fishing spears. This is purely functional, and based on the need to a) hit the fish, and b) keep it on the points. There are a number of forms from all over the world, anywhere people fish with spears. The classical trident actually appears to be a minority shape, actually.

--peasant forks, for hay, manure, etc. Again, these are tools, and I think they got weaponized in parts as military forks (although one reference suggests that military forks were also used for doing things like manipulating siege letters). Forks have been militarized elsewhere (China, India, Nepal), as shown above.

--tiger forks. These seem to be a primarily Chinese invention, and seem to be based on the same principle as the boar spear (e.g. keep the dangerous critter down at the pointy end of the shaft).

--Parrying weapons: as with the boar spear or tiger fork, the general principle is to catch the attacker (sword, spear, staff) and keep it from reaching you, and a fork is one way of catching a weapon. It's not ideal (especially in a small hand weapon), but it can work (especially when there's a long handle between you and the fork). Despite what some Karatekas say, sais reportedly work better on staffs than on swords, unless the swordsman doesn't know much about what he's doing.

--Oceanic symbolism: I think this primarily comes from the Mediterranean, where the trident became associated with Neptune and Poseidon. I'm pretty sure that the trident showed how "Brittania rules the waves."

--Trinitarian symbolism. In Christianity, we have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. In Hinduism, we have Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, and so forth. Three is once of those highly symbolic numbers, which is why (I think) trisuls and tridents get used around temples quite a lot, especially in India and China. Interesting that in Christianity, the trident seems to be more the devil's fork than something associated with, say, monasteries.

So is it right to consider all tridents to be equal? I'm not sure. Fun topic though.

Best,

F