SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS.

Matchlock · 6th July 2012, 02:08 PM

Hi Alain,

This belongs to a well-known group of swords that seem to have originated in Venice in the 1460's and were made almost identically up to the 1490's, and as you say, in Hungary as well.

My expertise in edged weapons is not really sufficient though to tell a Hungarian sword from one made in Venice. If I am not totally mistaken, the ends of the quillons are broader on Hungarian swords, so you may be right.

The piece seems quite homogeneous, possibly apart from the grip leather.

The trade mark on the blade seems to be a running wolf, probably the Passau type.

I add photos of another sample of that type of Venetian swords, sold at auction by von Morenberg, June 19, 2010.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 6th July 2012, 02:10 PM

Some more pics, and the group of four swords in the Doges Palace of Venice (on the left side).

m

Matchlock · 6th July 2012, 08:00 PM

From what I remember is generally associated with late-15th c. Hungarian swords of Venetian type is the attached form of a long saber or Grosses Messer, the hilt of characteristic Italian shape.

The similarity between the pommels and hilts of Venetian and Hungarian swords in the late 15th c. is, on the one hand, based on the fact that Northern Italy was style-defining throughout the Renaissance period, while on the other, Hungarian soldiers did service in Venetia in the second half of the 15th c.

Alain's sword is certainly an authentic Venetian piece of the 1480's; even the grip leather with its characteristically thick cord binding underneath seems to be the original.
The Passau wolf does not necessarily mean that the blade was imported from Passau; since at least the 15th c., it had become a wellknown trade mark
and was copied widely.

m

Valjhun · 7th July 2012, 10:34 PM

This one is also interesting:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=schiavona

Matchlock · 8th July 2012, 03:58 PM

Exactly, Valjuhn,

Sorry for overlooking that thread.

You can identify your type of sword among the group displayed on the right in the photo from the Doges Palace at Venice I posted above.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 8th July 2012, 04:23 PM

These Venetian swords are referred to in Armi Bianche, 1975.

m

sioume · 22nd July 2012, 04:18 PM

Hi all,

I just come back home and read all your posts.
Let me thank you for your interest and the photos as well.
I learned so much...Great and cool !!!
The thread "Schiavona and swords variations" was also very helpful.

About the Passau wolf on the blade, is it coherent to say that a blade could have been made in Passau and guard, pommel, quillons in Hungary.?
I read on Oakeshott books that parts of the swords can be made in several locations and put togheter in one. Blades due to their costs were often reused and swords becoming then composite.
What about that?

All the best
Alain

6th July 2012, 02:08 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Alain, This belongs to a well-known group of swords that seem to have originated in Venice in the 1460's and were made almost identically up to the 1490's, and as you say, in Hungary as well. My expertise in edged weapons is not really sufficient though to tell a Hungarian sword from one made in Venice. If I am not totally mistaken, the ends of the quillons are broader on Hungarian swords, so you may be right. The piece seems quite homogeneous, possibly apart from the grip leather. The trade mark on the blade seems to be a running wolf, probably the Passau type. I add photos of another sample of that type of Venetian swords, sold at auction by von Morenberg, June 19, 2010. Best, Michael Attached Images

6th July 2012, 02:10 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Some more pics, and the group of four swords in the Doges Palace of Venice (on the left side). m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2012 at 05:00 PM.

6th July 2012, 08:00 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	From what I remember is generally associated with late-15th c. Hungarian swords of Venetian type is the attached form of a long saber or Grosses Messer, the hilt of characteristic Italian shape. The similarity between the pommels and hilts of Venetian and Hungarian swords in the late 15th c. is, on the one hand, based on the fact that Northern Italy was style-defining throughout the Renaissance period, while on the other, Hungarian soldiers did service in Venetia in the second half of the 15th c. Alain's sword is certainly an authentic Venetian piece of the 1480's; even the grip leather with its characteristically thick cord binding underneath seems to be the original. The Passau wolf does not necessarily mean that the blade was imported from Passau; since at least the 15th c., it had become a wellknown trade mark and was copied widely. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 7th July 2012 at 05:01 PM.

8th July 2012, 03:58 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly, Valjuhn, Sorry for overlooking that thread. You can identify your type of sword among the group displayed on the right in the photo from the Doges Palace at Venice I posted above. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 8th July 2012 at 04:15 PM.

8th July 2012, 04:23 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	These Venetian swords are referred to in Armi Bianche, 1975. m Attached Images

7th July 2012, 10:34 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	This one is also interesting: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=schiavona

22nd July 2012, 04:18 PM	#7
sioume Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 12	Hi all, I just come back home and read all your posts. Let me thank you for your interest and the photos as well. I learned so much...Great and cool !!! The thread "Schiavona and swords variations" was also very helpful. About the Passau wolf on the blade, is it coherent to say that a blade could have been made in Passau and guard, pommel, quillons in Hungary.? I read on Oakeshott books that parts of the swords can be made in several locations and put togheter in one. Blades due to their costs were often reused and swords becoming then composite. What about that? All the best Alain