cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

nechesh · 6th September 2005, 12:00 PM

PURWACARITA WROTE: I'm glad that Indonesia keris have fans abroad whose keris change hands by money. I don't have problem with that. But in Indonesia, it could only be done without forgetting the culture. Culture is still the reason why Indonesian acquires keris, sorry, it is not the money.

I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. No where do i suggest that the REASON people in Indonesia acquire keris is money. I am not suggesting that the culture is forgotten and that keris in Indonesia are merely a commodity these days. Still, it is the METHOD by which most people, even in Indonesia, acquire their keris. I do understand the term mahar (dowery) and that within the culture many Indonesians will also accept certain responsiblities that come with the ownership of certain keris. Money, BTW, is nothing more than a representation of energy to be exchanged. There is nothing intrinsically evil about it. It represents the hard work of the person who holds it and can be used to obtain things they want or need in life. It represents the hard work they did to acquire it (in most cases

). Regardless of mahar, i believe it is still the most common way people acquire keris these days, even in Indonesia. I brought up the money issue originally because of your statement that people in Indonesia expect the "best" keris for $1000USD. I know for a fact that Indonesian collectors (for lack of a better word) often pay far more (in money) than that for what might be termed the "best" keris. This isn't meant to imply that they value the keris only for it's monetary value.

Purwacarita, could you also please define the terms perdikan and gurindam? Thanks.
BTW, thanks also for the lesson in astronomy.

purwacarita · 8th September 2005, 01:12 PM

Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend.

Rick · 8th September 2005, 02:36 PM

Hi Purwacarita , thank you for your complimentary comments , let's take the new keris I purchased as an example .
I bought it because it is a beautiful example of a kadutan . When I pass and it goes to my Son it will then be kadutan/pusaka , yes ?

Now another question ; if I had the resources to comission a keris with certain esoteric properties made by one of the last empus in Jawa capable of doing this and he requested money from me then I have indeed 'purchased' the keris , no ?

nechesh · 8th September 2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend.

So.....does that mean you are NOT going to answer my simple question about the definition of the terms you have used?

purwacarita · 10th September 2005, 10:52 AM

Hi Rick. Your kadutan not necessarily become pusaka of your son, unless you tell your son the experience you've through with the kadutan and how your kadutan became so useful for you and how you love and treasure it as pusaka. If you don't pass the message, your pusaka becomes kadutan of your son. If your son does not respect your message, it is not a pusaka of his.

No priest will sell esoteric properties. You can only buy new kadutan, or antique keris which its historical and spiritual properties had been lost or neglected. ...But if the empu could make it pertimi and ask the money from you, I hope my explanation to nechesh can answer it perfectly.

Why chopped liver? Now go back to what, stabbed wall?

Hi nechesh. I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend.

Until today for so many years I have lived in Indonesia as the citizen, there are still many things about Indonesia miss my understanding, as you know, Indonesia is rich of cultures. I can not understand them all and so I hope I could learn some from you in this forum.

Besides, though you are not admit your last posts of money perspectives, for once again your newer post reflected that perfectly. Well, ...there is nothing wrong with it because you are from culture of capitalism. Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc.

If you notice there different of these 2 cultures in keris. Capitalism will need the guy work for money before he can buy keris. Mahar will need the guy commitment after the keris is given. So keris in capitalism will require the result of ones in the past(CE:money), while keris in mahar will require the result of ones in the future(CE:discipline, responsibility, loyalty, hard-work, etc). Keris in capitalism will make the bearer usually get more self confidence, while keris in mahar may make the bearer schizoprenic. Maybe you can moderate 2 cultures to gain the best method of acquiring keris.

Buying and Selling is trade of both ones outcome of the past. Mahar is trade of ones outcome in the future and other in the present.

purwacarita · 10th September 2005, 02:31 PM

I can't believe I'm the only Indonesian posting. Are you still there enjoy reading or you are afraid to disagree my dynamic posts?

Rick · 10th September 2005, 04:38 PM

Hi Purwacarita , thank you for explaining to me the questions I have asked of you .

As for the 'chopped liver' business it was a self deprecating joke on my part which Andrew and Mark picked up on and they had a little fun changing my avatar . Afterwards I changed it back to the original Moro kris interpretation which is supposed to express the dynamic energy inherent in the weapon .

I am not sure why our other Indonesian Members have not responded to your posts ; I certainly hope they will . I also hope that it is OK for non Indonesians to participate in this thread as well .

nechesh · 10th September 2005, 05:18 PM

Purwacarita, i am a little confused at this point. You began this thread with a story about a fellow Indonesian who obtained a keris that was "mahared" at Rp, 10 mil.(approx. $1000 USD). This seems to be a common practice in Indonesia as i have been on many websites from the area that SELL keris this way with the PRICE labelled as "mahar". I am aware that there are no doubt still Indonesians who may be fortunate enough to recieve a keris as pusaka from a relative, but is this truly the most COMMON way in which keris change hands TODAY in Indonesia or is it more likely to occur as it did with your friend in the story?
BTW, the use of a local currency to obtain goods is not an invention of Capitalism. Communist and Socialist countries also use currency and even so-called primitive cultures commonly found particular items (shells, beads, etc.) which served as a form of money. On a purely idealistic level i do tend to agree with you that "Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc." , but in practice i am not convinced it actually works out that way. And with great respect to the long histories and cultures of the Indonesian people you are CURRENTLY living in a very Capitalistic society. People are people after all, and whether they are capable of maintaining any commitment to the spirit and nature of the keris they have obtained is probably more determined by their personal understanding of "Will" than the manner in which they obtained their keris. From where i sit it is basically impossible for me to receive a keris through mahar. I am therefore forced into using money to obtain my keris. This is not, believe me, because of any great love or appreciation for the system of Capitalism. Yet when i receive a keris i do my best to pay respect to it an try to determine the "will" of the blade, if any. If i understand you correctly it is your stance that a keris which is sold for money no longer holds any esorteric properties. If that is your belief i have personally found it to be untrue. Many bought keris still resonate strongly and i don't need psychics, dukkuns or Coggins machines to prove it to me.

I am still really interested in your definitions of the terms perdikan and gurindam. It can only be helpful to the points you are trying to make if we understand all your words.

Rick · 10th September 2005, 08:07 PM

Purwacarita , in rereading this thread I find that at least three people (keris enthusiasts) from your area have responded to your post .

Perhaps they have said all they wish on this subject .

Now I must ask , if your views on the nature and transferrence of keris from one person to another is not about money at all ; why then is your avatar money itself ?
I must admit to being as confused about this as you must be about my "Kris stabbing a wall" .

6th September 2005, 12:00 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	PURWACARITA WROTE: I'm glad that Indonesia keris have fans abroad whose keris change hands by money. I don't have problem with that. But in Indonesia, it could only be done without forgetting the culture. Culture is still the reason why Indonesian acquires keris, sorry, it is not the money. I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. No where do i suggest that the REASON people in Indonesia acquire keris is money. I am not suggesting that the culture is forgotten and that keris in Indonesia are merely a commodity these days. Still, it is the METHOD by which most people, even in Indonesia, acquire their keris. I do understand the term mahar (dowery) and that within the culture many Indonesians will also accept certain responsiblities that come with the ownership of certain keris. Money, BTW, is nothing more than a representation of energy to be exchanged. There is nothing intrinsically evil about it. It represents the hard work of the person who holds it and can be used to obtain things they want or need in life. It represents the hard work they did to acquire it (in most cases ). Regardless of mahar, i believe it is still the most common way people acquire keris these days, even in Indonesia. I brought up the money issue originally because of your statement that people in Indonesia expect the "best" keris for $1000USD. I know for a fact that Indonesian collectors (for lack of a better word) often pay far more (in money) than that for what might be termed the "best" keris. This isn't meant to imply that they value the keris only for it's monetary value. Purwacarita, could you also please define the terms perdikan and gurindam? Thanks. BTW, thanks also for the lesson in astronomy. Last edited by nechesh; 6th September 2005 at 09:49 PM.

10th September 2005, 08:07 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Another Thought and Question Purwacarita , in rereading this thread I find that at least three people (keris enthusiasts) from your area have responded to your post . Perhaps they have said all they wish on this subject . Now I must ask , if your views on the nature and transferrence of keris from one person to another is not about money at all ; why then is your avatar money itself ? I must admit to being as confused about this as you must be about my "Kris stabbing a wall" .

8th September 2005, 01:12 PM	#2
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend.

8th September 2005, 02:36 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Purwacarita , thank you for your complimentary comments , let's take the new keris I purchased as an example . I bought it because it is a beautiful example of a kadutan . When I pass and it goes to my Son it will then be kadutan/pusaka , yes ? Now another question ; if I had the resources to comission a keris with certain esoteric properties made by one of the last empus in Jawa capable of doing this and he requested money from me then I have indeed 'purchased' the keris , no ?

10th September 2005, 10:52 AM	#5
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Rick. Your kadutan not necessarily become pusaka of your son, unless you tell your son the experience you've through with the kadutan and how your kadutan became so useful for you and how you love and treasure it as pusaka. If you don't pass the message, your pusaka becomes kadutan of your son. If your son does not respect your message, it is not a pusaka of his. No priest will sell esoteric properties. You can only buy new kadutan, or antique keris which its historical and spiritual properties had been lost or neglected. ...But if the empu could make it pertimi and ask the money from you, I hope my explanation to nechesh can answer it perfectly. Why chopped liver? Now go back to what, stabbed wall? Hi nechesh. I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. Until today for so many years I have lived in Indonesia as the citizen, there are still many things about Indonesia miss my understanding, as you know, Indonesia is rich of cultures. I can not understand them all and so I hope I could learn some from you in this forum. Besides, though you are not admit your last posts of money perspectives, for once again your newer post reflected that perfectly. Well, ...there is nothing wrong with it because you are from culture of capitalism. Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc. If you notice there different of these 2 cultures in keris. Capitalism will need the guy work for money before he can buy keris. Mahar will need the guy commitment after the keris is given. So keris in capitalism will require the result of ones in the past(CE:money), while keris in mahar will require the result of ones in the future(CE:discipline, responsibility, loyalty, hard-work, etc). Keris in capitalism will make the bearer usually get more self confidence, while keris in mahar may make the bearer schizoprenic. Maybe you can moderate 2 cultures to gain the best method of acquiring keris. Buying and Selling is trade of both ones outcome of the past. Mahar is trade of ones outcome in the future and other in the present.

10th September 2005, 02:31 PM	#6
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	I can't believe I'm the only Indonesian posting. Are you still there enjoy reading or you are afraid to disagree my dynamic posts?

10th September 2005, 04:38 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Purwacarita , thank you for explaining to me the questions I have asked of you . As for the 'chopped liver' business it was a self deprecating joke on my part which Andrew and Mark picked up on and they had a little fun changing my avatar . Afterwards I changed it back to the original Moro kris interpretation which is supposed to express the dynamic energy inherent in the weapon . I am not sure why our other Indonesian Members have not responded to your posts ; I certainly hope they will . I also hope that it is OK for non Indonesians to participate in this thread as well .

10th September 2005, 05:18 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Purwacarita, i am a little confused at this point. You began this thread with a story about a fellow Indonesian who obtained a keris that was "mahared" at Rp, 10 mil.(approx. $1000 USD). This seems to be a common practice in Indonesia as i have been on many websites from the area that SELL keris this way with the PRICE labelled as "mahar". I am aware that there are no doubt still Indonesians who may be fortunate enough to recieve a keris as pusaka from a relative, but is this truly the most COMMON way in which keris change hands TODAY in Indonesia or is it more likely to occur as it did with your friend in the story? BTW, the use of a local currency to obtain goods is not an invention of Capitalism. Communist and Socialist countries also use currency and even so-called primitive cultures commonly found particular items (shells, beads, etc.) which served as a form of money. On a purely idealistic level i do tend to agree with you that "Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc." , but in practice i am not convinced it actually works out that way. And with great respect to the long histories and cultures of the Indonesian people you are CURRENTLY living in a very Capitalistic society. People are people after all, and whether they are capable of maintaining any commitment to the spirit and nature of the keris they have obtained is probably more determined by their personal understanding of "Will" than the manner in which they obtained their keris. From where i sit it is basically impossible for me to receive a keris through mahar. I am therefore forced into using money to obtain my keris. This is not, believe me, because of any great love or appreciation for the system of Capitalism. Yet when i receive a keris i do my best to pay respect to it an try to determine the "will" of the blade, if any. If i understand you correctly it is your stance that a keris which is sold for money no longer holds any esorteric properties. If that is your belief i have personally found it to be untrue. Many bought keris still resonate strongly and i don't need psychics, dukkuns or Coggins machines to prove it to me. I am still really interested in your definitions of the terms perdikan and gurindam. It can only be helpful to the points you are trying to make if we understand all your words.