Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

Jens Nordlunde · 28th December 2004, 09:46 PM

Funny enough, I have meet an Estherhase, at that time living in Denmark, now, I think he is living somewhere else. Some years ago (about thirty) I even saw their castle in Austria. Very interesting thread. They were at the time a very powerfull family.

Jens

wolviex · 28th December 2004, 10:05 PM

Let me bring a photo of koncerz/estoc too

But it isn't thread on development of estocs - is it?

PS. I will start a new thread if I'll be able to gather interesting informations. I was even thinking weeks ago, about starting a series of articles about weapons in Poland. But being busy, I realize also, that repeating bookish informations for people who are meanly intersted in Polish weapons is simply art for art's sake (it is becouse this forum gather people who are mainly collectors - and collecting Polish armament today is almost impossible

), so I think I'll leave the idea on better times.
Regards

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2004, 04:47 AM

Radu,

Thank you very much for your kind words on my article on the mameluke sabres. Although I was not a marine, I have good friends who were, one who was a wing commander in a Marine fighter squadron. In a discussion where he was proudly showing the sabre he was given, he asked to know more about the history. I put together some research which evolved into an article, which I was very proud of when it was accepted by "The Marine Corps Gazette" for publication. While they used my text unedited, they used their own photos, and I would have liked to add illustrations of the swords discussed. I am extremely proud of our Marines and all of our armed forces. My son and son in law both serve in the Army presently and I am naturally most proud of them.

On the Schiavona: I dug further into files and find that you are most correct in the Eastern European attribution for these distinctive swords. I found this;
"...if, as seems probable, swords of this type were intoduced into Italy from Hungary, perhaps through Dalmatia, they are clearly very likely to have been called 'Slavonic swords'. We may be reasonably certain therefore of the original meaning of the term 'spada schiavona'".
"A Schiavona Rapier"
Claude Blair
Journal of the Arms & Armour
Society London
Vol.V, #12, Dec. 1967
More interesting is discussion by David Nicolle (Military Illustrated #134, July,1999, p.36, "Last Roman Elite") where he notes this particular term was first seen used in a Dalmatian will of 1391, and it described blades of light slashing form exported to Balkans and hilted locally. The more developed hilt forms most associated with schiavona evolved latter 15th c.

It seems quite a few of the illustrations you are using come from Iaroslav Lebedynsky's "Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" (Paris, 1996).
It is interesting to note that in this book, Lebedynsky illustrates a schiavona along with a discussion of sabres (p.25).
Your photo #17 appears in this book on p.55.

Re: the note on curved sabres of Alans, Avars, the line drawings you show as photo #1 appears in Lebedynsky p.18, and is captioned from top to bottom;
1.) Alan 2.) Alan , N. Caucusus 3.) Hungarian 4.) Alan-Magyar, Charlemagne's sword received by him as gift.
These would seem to support your theory on Alan swords being curved,
however there is some evidence to curved sabres for Avars as well.

A warrior from Pannonian Croatia, 9th c. is discussed in "Croatia in the Medieval Period, 9th-14th Centuries" by V.Vuksic & D. Fischer, Military Illustrated #61, June 1993, p.14:
"...a large number of the type carried by these warriors have been discovered in the Danube basin. They are about 85 cm long with a wooden handle wrapped in leather. Such a sabre, with its curved blade, was introduced into Europe by the second wave of Avar immigrants settling in the Avar-Slav state at the end of the 7th century".

On the estoc: a very good illustration of the estoc (termed 'tuck' colloquially by Western European armies) appears being carried under the right leg under the saddle in "The Polish Rider" , Rembrandts fantastic painting of 1655. It has been later discovered by Professor Zygulski that the subject of the painting was actually a Lithuanian noble (see "Polish Armies:1569-1696" , Osprey, 1987, p.5). Zygulski is also a foremost authority on the fantastic Winged Hussars of Poland who appear in numerous illustrations in this thread. I have always considered the history of these magnificent cavalrymen one of the most interesting in the study of cavalry.

The mention of Eszterhazy's hussar regiment is also fascinating and brings forward the exciting 'panache' so admired by Western European armies.
In Wagner's "Cut & Thrust Weapons" on. p.406, there is a beautiful illustration of an officers sabre of Prince Paul Eszterhazy's hussar regiment of c.1741-1775. I once had an opportunity to acquire an identical example, and still regret not getting it!!! Interesting on these is the string of pearls motif along the back of the knuckleguard.
Jens, were there any swords displayed there in the castle? I would love to see and handle one of these outstanding sabres again!!

Best regards,
Jim

Rivkin · 29th December 2004, 05:32 AM

The thing I wondered about is how much in adoption of Hussar sabre was a polish influence, and how much was a turkish/middle eastern influence. One can made a good case that turks used to constantly face european armies, and it would be as natural for the latter ones to adopt turkish/mameluk weaponry, as to adapt a polish version of originally turkish weaponry.

USMC Mameluk sword is probably not a typical case, but that's the one for which the mameluk roots are unambigious.

P.S. It would be almost certain that russian and caucasian swords would for example be influenced by both western and eastern versions - for each shashka with a gurda or "owka" blade one can find an iranian shamshir.

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th December 2004, 09:06 AM

Wolviex: My dearest friend, your thoughts dont sound like a plan... I think you should do it and we all should contribute ... I am just so excited to rejoice forces with ones that have similar heritage and interests and I much feel like after that long, darn years of Iron Curtain clichee crap, I want to open the eyes of the rest of the world (and to or own people too) to look no further for the glory and beauty then in own garden; I truely believe anyway that in the next years one amazing eastern Europe will be part of new Renaissance Era and will be a one verry merry EU ... avant-garde just watch !
I think there should be a larger, more aware pan-Eastearn European conscience to better serve our interests and manage our potential ... how about a future new encyclopedic book on the weaponry and the military costume of our part of the world, since its so rich in heritage ...
Well, maybe its time I should wake up now

On a side note, I think the world, art, history in general makes a bit too much of the ,,West,, as being the Old continent leaving the rest in shade ...
What can I say : while in the left hand, Mother Europa carried its defensive shield , in the right arm she had plenty of room for an oportunistic glorious sword, right ? ...
Just like Americans say : remember Alamo ! ... we should shout : remember Vienna !!! `cause today, otherwise, Bin Laden might`ve been just as well Belgian and be not so famous

...
And let me say : those koncerz you posted are really sweet , the exact ,,a-la-carte,, classical in every detail, perfectly preserved, just like they wouldve dismounted off the classical paintings !

Rivkin: I am not sugesting the Eastern Europe as the ,,ground of transition,, for the modern saber , they are

the makers of the modern saber ! Western Europe was nothing but the ones that adopted a superb, finished and succesfull product ... The proto-type of the modern saber and the inspiration was undoubtely like I mentioned the Turkic scimitars introduced in Europe via invasions.
Myself, I can think of the Turkoman nations as the great-grandfather of it but definatelly they cannot claim the parenthood of modern curved saber ...
If we would write a brief history about the making of this weapon, one could dispense of the Asian prototype theories but cannot avoid in anyway the Hungaro-Polish testimony ...
A somehow off-line paralel can be made with Japanese swords : the proto-types undoubtely were Koreean & Chinese straight swords evolving into what became the katana (nin-to if you preffer...) , should one really wonder how Chinese a Katana or a Wakizashi is ... Can China really claim the nin-to, even though she was the craddle ?[/FONT]

Jim M. : I admire your persuasive nature and help with offering the sources of the ilustrations I used, perfectly right on the very detail, just like you were next to me when I scanned them ! I must`ve had you nervously pulling a few books around and refresh your French until you nailed it, did I

?
P.S. Thank you for researching and confirming my notes, I feel more confident now that I have you on my side ( if there is another side anyway ...). As far as the Alanic-Avaric variation, I wouldnt sweat it so much, sometimes things are just way too bloody ancient and arguments are too damn vague... I dont feel like digging here, I`ll rather try to track the exact times when other countries started adopting the modern saber when exactly it crossed borders in Austria (very soon in this one case, anyway) and when in Germany, France, Britain, Scandinavia, Russia, USA and so on ...
Oh, and I want to see that Rembrandt painting otherwise i`ll get no sleep and you are personally responsible !!! And I mean it !

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th December 2004, 11:06 AM

Hey, I found it , I found it !!! REMBRANDT - The Polish Rider ... how splendid ... thank you Jim McDougall ! Here is a close up of the soldier itself with his weapons showing very good : we see the Oriental recurved bow (luk) and arrows (strzala) with sajdak quiver of undeniable Turko-Tartaric origins (I hope Rivkin reads this...) , the Hungaro-Polish szablye on left hip , in his right hand the war-hammer known as nadzaik and tucked in the saddle is the koncerz. He wears a zupan (long inner coat) and a kolpak fur hat...
We can`t blame the man (n. - Rembrandt) for trying, however, a few abnormalities exude, mainly and most important the koncerz (I know he meant to put a darn koncerz not a saber there !) is curved and ha an uncharacteristic monture (I think I am too picky after all)...
Wolviex, how did I do with the Polish names and what do you think about this painting ? I say very nice but not perfect ... szlachty without a mustache, I dont think so

!

wolviex · 29th December 2004, 02:12 PM

Prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski wrote a lot about it (there was hard discussion between him and western experts which disagreed with him saying it's not Polish rider, but he proved it) so I can search notes about it, to not repeating that what was said before. I read about it long time ago, and I just don't remember, but isn't it rider called Lisowczyk ?. This was light cavalry under the command of colonel Lisowski, which during Polish-Russian war occupied Moscow with Polish army in 1610? - I'll check it.

It's a sabre not koncerz under the leg. I'm, not sure for now if Rembrandt wanted to put it there. Koncerz, as I wrote it earlier, was under left leg.

Radu, your Polish is sehr gut

. The only problem is the lack of Polish letters. Arrows you can write strzaly because strzala is singular. The saber is szabla not szablye and this war-hammer is nadziak. And I wouldn't be so convinced about mustache - it's a young boy anyway, and I didn't hear about sticked hairs in 17th c. Poland

28th December 2004, 10:05 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Estocs Let me bring a photo of koncerz/estoc too But it isn't thread on development of estocs - is it? PS. I will start a new thread if I'll be able to gather interesting informations. I was even thinking weeks ago, about starting a series of articles about weapons in Poland. But being busy, I realize also, that repeating bookish informations for people who are meanly intersted in Polish weapons is simply art for art's sake (it is becouse this forum gather people who are mainly collectors - and collecting Polish armament today is almost impossible ), so I think I'll leave the idea on better times. Regards Attached Images

29th December 2004, 09:06 AM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Wolviex: My dearest friend, your thoughts dont sound like a plan... I think you should do it and we all should contribute ... I am just so excited to rejoice forces with ones that have similar heritage and interests and I much feel like after that long, darn years of Iron Curtain clichee crap, I want to open the eyes of the rest of the world (and to or own people too) to look no further for the glory and beauty then in own garden; I truely believe anyway that in the next years one amazing eastern Europe will be part of new Renaissance Era and will be a one verry merry EU ... avant-garde just watch ! I think there should be a larger, more aware pan-Eastearn European conscience to better serve our interests and manage our potential ... how about a future new encyclopedic book on the weaponry and the military costume of our part of the world, since its so rich in heritage ... Well, maybe its time I should wake up now On a side note, I think the world, art, history in general makes a bit too much of the ,,West,, as being the Old continent leaving the rest in shade ... What can I say : while in the left hand, Mother Europa carried its defensive shield , in the right arm she had plenty of room for an oportunistic glorious sword, right ? ... Just like Americans say : remember Alamo ! ... we should shout : remember Vienna !!! `cause today, otherwise, Bin Laden might`ve been just as well Belgian and be not so famous ... And let me say : those koncerz you posted are really sweet , the exact ,,a-la-carte,, classical in every detail, perfectly preserved, just like they wouldve dismounted off the classical paintings ! Rivkin: I am not sugesting the Eastern Europe as the ,,ground of transition,, for the modern saber , they are the makers of the modern saber ! Western Europe was nothing but the ones that adopted a superb, finished and succesfull product ... The proto-type of the modern saber and the inspiration was undoubtely like I mentioned the Turkic scimitars introduced in Europe via invasions. Myself, I can think of the Turkoman nations as the great-grandfather of it but definatelly they cannot claim the parenthood of modern curved saber ... If we would write a brief history about the making of this weapon, one could dispense of the Asian prototype theories but cannot avoid in anyway the Hungaro-Polish testimony ... A somehow off-line paralel can be made with Japanese swords : the proto-types undoubtely were Koreean & Chinese straight swords evolving into what became the katana (nin-to if you preffer...) , should one really wonder how Chinese a Katana or a Wakizashi is ... Can China really claim the nin-to, even though she was the craddle ?[/FONT] Jim M. : I admire your persuasive nature and help with offering the sources of the ilustrations I used, perfectly right on the very detail, just like you were next to me when I scanned them ! I must`ve had you nervously pulling a few books around and refresh your French until you nailed it, did I ? P.S. Thank you for researching and confirming my notes, I feel more confident now that I have you on my side ( if there is another side anyway ...). As far as the Alanic-Avaric variation, I wouldnt sweat it so much, sometimes things are just way too bloody ancient and arguments are too damn vague... I dont feel like digging here, I`ll rather try to track the exact times when other countries started adopting the modern saber when exactly it crossed borders in Austria (very soon in this one case, anyway) and when in Germany, France, Britain, Scandinavia, Russia, USA and so on ... Oh, and I want to see that Rembrandt painting otherwise i`ll get no sleep and you are personally responsible !!! And I mean it ! Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th December 2004 at 12:42 PM.

28th December 2004, 09:46 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Funny enough, I have meet an Estherhase, at that time living in Denmark, now, I think he is living somewhere else. Some years ago (about thirty) I even saw their castle in Austria. Very interesting thread. They were at the time a very powerfull family. Jens

29th December 2004, 04:47 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898	Radu, Thank you very much for your kind words on my article on the mameluke sabres. Although I was not a marine, I have good friends who were, one who was a wing commander in a Marine fighter squadron. In a discussion where he was proudly showing the sabre he was given, he asked to know more about the history. I put together some research which evolved into an article, which I was very proud of when it was accepted by "The Marine Corps Gazette" for publication. While they used my text unedited, they used their own photos, and I would have liked to add illustrations of the swords discussed. I am extremely proud of our Marines and all of our armed forces. My son and son in law both serve in the Army presently and I am naturally most proud of them. On the Schiavona: I dug further into files and find that you are most correct in the Eastern European attribution for these distinctive swords. I found this; "...if, as seems probable, swords of this type were intoduced into Italy from Hungary, perhaps through Dalmatia, they are clearly very likely to have been called 'Slavonic swords'. We may be reasonably certain therefore of the original meaning of the term 'spada schiavona'". "A Schiavona Rapier" Claude Blair Journal of the Arms & Armour Society London Vol.V, #12, Dec. 1967 More interesting is discussion by David Nicolle (Military Illustrated #134, July,1999, p.36, "Last Roman Elite") where he notes this particular term was first seen used in a Dalmatian will of 1391, and it described blades of light slashing form exported to Balkans and hilted locally. The more developed hilt forms most associated with schiavona evolved latter 15th c. It seems quite a few of the illustrations you are using come from Iaroslav Lebedynsky's "Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" (Paris, 1996). It is interesting to note that in this book, Lebedynsky illustrates a schiavona along with a discussion of sabres (p.25). Your photo #17 appears in this book on p.55. Re: the note on curved sabres of Alans, Avars, the line drawings you show as photo #1 appears in Lebedynsky p.18, and is captioned from top to bottom; 1.) Alan 2.) Alan , N. Caucusus 3.) Hungarian 4.) Alan-Magyar, Charlemagne's sword received by him as gift. These would seem to support your theory on Alan swords being curved, however there is some evidence to curved sabres for Avars as well. A warrior from Pannonian Croatia, 9th c. is discussed in "Croatia in the Medieval Period, 9th-14th Centuries" by V.Vuksic & D. Fischer, Military Illustrated #61, June 1993, p.14: "...a large number of the type carried by these warriors have been discovered in the Danube basin. They are about 85 cm long with a wooden handle wrapped in leather. Such a sabre, with its curved blade, was introduced into Europe by the second wave of Avar immigrants settling in the Avar-Slav state at the end of the 7th century". On the estoc: a very good illustration of the estoc (termed 'tuck' colloquially by Western European armies) appears being carried under the right leg under the saddle in "The Polish Rider" , Rembrandts fantastic painting of 1655. It has been later discovered by Professor Zygulski that the subject of the painting was actually a Lithuanian noble (see "Polish Armies:1569-1696" , Osprey, 1987, p.5). Zygulski is also a foremost authority on the fantastic Winged Hussars of Poland who appear in numerous illustrations in this thread. I have always considered the history of these magnificent cavalrymen one of the most interesting in the study of cavalry. The mention of Eszterhazy's hussar regiment is also fascinating and brings forward the exciting 'panache' so admired by Western European armies. In Wagner's "Cut & Thrust Weapons" on. p.406, there is a beautiful illustration of an officers sabre of Prince Paul Eszterhazy's hussar regiment of c.1741-1775. I once had an opportunity to acquire an identical example, and still regret not getting it!!! Interesting on these is the string of pearls motif along the back of the knuckleguard. Jens, were there any swords displayed there in the castle? I would love to see and handle one of these outstanding sabres again!! Best regards, Jim

29th December 2004, 05:32 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	The thing I wondered about is how much in adoption of Hussar sabre was a polish influence, and how much was a turkish/middle eastern influence. One can made a good case that turks used to constantly face european armies, and it would be as natural for the latter ones to adopt turkish/mameluk weaponry, as to adapt a polish version of originally turkish weaponry. USMC Mameluk sword is probably not a typical case, but that's the one for which the mameluk roots are unambigious. P.S. It would be almost certain that russian and caucasian swords would for example be influenced by both western and eastern versions - for each shashka with a gurda or "owka" blade one can find an iranian shamshir.

29th December 2004, 11:06 AM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Hey, I found it , I found it !!! REMBRANDT - The Polish Rider ... how splendid ... thank you Jim McDougall ! Here is a close up of the soldier itself with his weapons showing very good : we see the Oriental recurved bow (luk) and arrows (strzala) with sajdak quiver of undeniable Turko-Tartaric origins (I hope Rivkin reads this...) , the Hungaro-Polish szablye on left hip , in his right hand the war-hammer known as nadzaik and tucked in the saddle is the koncerz. He wears a zupan (long inner coat) and a kolpak fur hat... We can`t blame the man (n. - Rembrandt) for trying, however, a few abnormalities exude, mainly and most important the koncerz (I know he meant to put a darn koncerz not a saber there !) is curved and ha an uncharacteristic monture (I think I am too picky after all)... Wolviex, how did I do with the Polish names and what do you think about this painting ? I say very nice but not perfect ... szlachty without a mustache, I dont think so ! Attached Images Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th December 2004 at 01:03 PM.

29th December 2004, 02:12 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski wrote a lot about it (there was hard discussion between him and western experts which disagreed with him saying it's not Polish rider, but he proved it) so I can search notes about it, to not repeating that what was said before. I read about it long time ago, and I just don't remember, but isn't it rider called Lisowczyk ?. This was light cavalry under the command of colonel Lisowski, which during Polish-Russian war occupied Moscow with Polish army in 1610? - I'll check it. It's a sabre not koncerz under the leg. I'm, not sure for now if Rembrandt wanted to put it there. Koncerz, as I wrote it earlier, was under left leg. Radu, your Polish is sehr gut . The only problem is the lack of Polish letters. Arrows you can write strzaly because strzala is singular. The saber is szabla not szablye and this war-hammer is nadziak. And I wouldn't be so convinced about mustache - it's a young boy anyway, and I didn't hear about sticked hairs in 17th c. Poland