Two handed swords

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

yes I am familiar with this literature, the only DKM forgeries now with 100% certainty to be allotted,in this case to the workshop of Anton Konrad, are a dresden reiter degen and a medieval ceremonial sword.

The Katzbalger with the beautiful chiseled pommel is defined by Uhlemann as suspicious, but here the status left with the last publication before his retirement.
Both of them I've seen and both I find convincing enough, with the science of 1968 more atypical weapons were classified as fakes.

or you may have more recent results of research which I am not aware of?
I have no further written information about the other katzbalger, do you have something available? (from the weaponry community?)

kind regards,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,


There seem to be diverting criteria of what to define as characteristic and original; this not a problem at all, just normal among experts and it makes discussions all the more worth while. Otherwise weaponry would come to standstill.

No, to my knowledge no other publiations have been dedicated to the Solingen Katzbalgers since the 1980's, the time when Haedecke was in charge.


Best,
m

[cornelistromp]

hi Michael,

the first Katzbalger is dated by Uhlemann 1530 in kosbare blankwaffen (1968), in 1991, this same katzbalger is dated by Haedeke around 1550 in "Fuhrer durch die Sammlungen DKM" ". there is no mentioning whatsoever in either publication of any composite piece or shortened blade.
furthermore the length of 78cm is very acceptable for a Katzbalger,fe compare JP Puype, Arms and Armour of knights and Landknechts, katzbalger no 39 and no 40, resp. 82 cm and 80cm.
This blade shape is so specific that it must be designed for a/this -balger,
where did you find the information that these katzbalger is either a composite or that the blade has been shortened?

best,

[Matchlock]

In general, weapons, like architecture and all kinds of artwork, followed the characteristic proportions of their respective period:

-Gothic period: long, 'tall' and slender, and fluted (like the lofty Gothic steeples)

- Renaissance: relatively short and 'stout', multi-staged and flued, like architectural columns and candlesticks; of a Katzbalger, an overall length of ca. 90-93 cm is typical and average. No staging at all in alledged 'period' barrels, grips or blades is highly unusual and suspect

- Baroque: in the early years of the period, notably longer and more slender than the Renaissance types, narrowing down from the 1630's


To my friend and me, the most typical Katzbalgers showing all characteristic criteria are the two Berlin samples attached. I have exerienced the same with early firearms, and almost without any exemption to the rule.
As I have stated several times, these criteria are hard to convey.
The got to be 'grasped'.


And believe me: there are discussions taking place between experts without being published.


Btw, I'afraid we're in the wrong thread ...


m

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

each piece is unique, not mass production made ​​within a tolerance of characteristics , produced over a wide area and time and so must be judged individually so general rules have little use here.

for example the 90cm:where did you get the 90cm from, is this is an average of ?!? katzbalgers ?it has no function in the assessment of an individual piece.

Moreover, the upper katzbalger from Berlin has the same allover length as the one under discussion, in the DKM, namely 79cm.

this length is acceptable, for me it is unlikely that the katzbalger of DKM is shortened.

I agree we are of topic here!

regards,

[Matchlock]

Jasper,

Please do talk to any arts historian specialized in Gothic and Renaissance arts and crafts (not weaponry); he will confirm the proportional rule.
It is, among others, due to this rule that we intuitively recognize a period object.

m

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

Of course I know how it works, but to compare proportions and style characteristics is only used as there is little comparative data available.

to 'test" Katzbalgers with the 2 katzbalgers from europeische hieb und stich waffen (published by Mueller / Kolling / platow) is far too limited. The two from Berlin are just one of many katzbalger manifestations, as you can clearly see on the many landsknecht images you have posted.

I tried to indicate the borders of this weapon, a katzbalger has to meet all following three point of the definition.

first the word katzbalger;
Schnieder1957, according to Seitz, the mercenaries used instead of a scabbard a cat's skin sheath, they had the ability to stab the sword quickly without pulling the sword from its sheath.
This seems unlikely since there are many 16thC images where a scabbard can be seen.

Another theory is that the word katzbalger comes from how cats fight, (wie katzen balgen) cats fight like mercenaries in close combat.

most likely is the theory of JP Puype in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts, page 152: The etymology of the german name katzbalger is unclear but there is consensus that balger comes from the middle high German verb balgen, meaning to brawl, whereas the word KATZ(cat) might be a corruption of KURZ(short). Nonetheless there are also katzbalgers with longer blades apparently worn by mounted landsknecht officers.



then the definition;
to my understanding, a katzbalger must meet all 3 of the following criteria;

1. Sword of the landsknecht(infantry) with a horizontal or S- or 8-curved guard. (cf. Seitz blankwaffen P173, puype p152)

2. a broad straight mainly two edged blade, in the first place used for cutting and slashing blows and not for stabbing, in most cases with a rounded tip.

3.basic hilt form;The speading end of the grip is made ​​of metal and no true pommel exists, alternatively hilt subform; the grip ends with a pommel or in a cap, fitting down over it. (norman1980 hilt3 p66 )


A 16thC estoc with an 8 shaped guard is not a Katzbalger because it does not meet 1 and 2 of the definition; not a landsknecht infantry weapon and the wrong type of blade not suitable for close combat.

best,