Two handed swords

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

I am sorry to say that since at least 1968, the weaponry community has agreed that both these Solingen 'Katzbalgers' are composite pieces.

The first, with a hilt of characterisic form, is clearly the better or the two and the blade, typically staged and fullered (one of the main criteria I pointed out) may have been shortened (overall length only 78 cm); the 1968 catalog by Dr. Heinz R. Uhlemann points out that this type of sword is commonly forged (top three attachments).

The second is commonly agreed to be a crude 19th/20th c. fake, way too short, but reusing an authentic and finely caved pommel of ca. 1520 in the shape of a bearded Landsknecht's head. Only the measurements of the pommel are given, the remainder is neglected.
I realize your command of German is good, so the translation of the description by Uhlemann is for the rest of the community:
'The original, archetypically iron-carved pommel is part of a Landsknecht sword which is suspicious in all its remaining parts.'
(Kostbare Blankwaffen aus dem Deutschen Klingenmuseum Solingen, 1968, p. 46.)

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

yes I am familiar with this literature, the only DKM forgeries now with 100% certainty to be allotted,in this case to the workshop of Anton Konrad, are a dresden reiter degen and a medieval ceremonial sword.

The Katzbalger with the beautiful chiseled pommel is defined by Uhlemann as suspicious, but here the status left with the last publication before his retirement.
Both of them I've seen and both I find convincing enough, with the science of 1968 more atypical weapons were classified as fakes.

or you may have more recent results of research which I am not aware of?
I have no further written information about the other katzbalger, do you have something available? (from the weaponry community?)

kind regards,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,


There seem to be diverting criteria of what to define as characteristic and original; this not a problem at all, just normal among experts and it makes discussions all the more worth while. Otherwise weaponry would come to standstill.

No, to my knowledge no other publiations have been dedicated to the Solingen Katzbalgers since the 1980's, the time when Haedecke was in charge.


Best,
m

[cornelistromp]

hi Michael,

the first Katzbalger is dated by Uhlemann 1530 in kosbare blankwaffen (1968), in 1991, this same katzbalger is dated by Haedeke around 1550 in "Fuhrer durch die Sammlungen DKM" ". there is no mentioning whatsoever in either publication of any composite piece or shortened blade.
furthermore the length of 78cm is very acceptable for a Katzbalger,fe compare JP Puype, Arms and Armour of knights and Landknechts, katzbalger no 39 and no 40, resp. 82 cm and 80cm.
This blade shape is so specific that it must be designed for a/this -balger,
where did you find the information that these katzbalger is either a composite or that the blade has been shortened?

best,

[Matchlock]

In general, weapons, like architecture and all kinds of artwork, followed the characteristic proportions of their respective period:

-Gothic period: long, 'tall' and slender, and fluted (like the lofty Gothic steeples)

- Renaissance: relatively short and 'stout', multi-staged and flued, like architectural columns and candlesticks; of a Katzbalger, an overall length of ca. 90-93 cm is typical and average. No staging at all in alledged 'period' barrels, grips or blades is highly unusual and suspect

- Baroque: in the early years of the period, notably longer and more slender than the Renaissance types, narrowing down from the 1630's


To my friend and me, the most typical Katzbalgers showing all characteristic criteria are the two Berlin samples attached. I have exerienced the same with early firearms, and almost without any exemption to the rule.
As I have stated several times, these criteria are hard to convey.
The got to be 'grasped'.


And believe me: there are discussions taking place between experts without being published.


Btw, I'afraid we're in the wrong thread ...


m

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

each piece is unique, not mass production made ​​within a tolerance of characteristics , produced over a wide area and time and so must be judged individually so general rules have little use here.

for example the 90cm:where did you get the 90cm from, is this is an average of ?!? katzbalgers ?it has no function in the assessment of an individual piece.

Moreover, the upper katzbalger from Berlin has the same allover length as the one under discussion, in the DKM, namely 79cm.

this length is acceptable, for me it is unlikely that the katzbalger of DKM is shortened.

I agree we are of topic here!

regards,

[Matchlock]

Jasper,

Please do talk to any arts historian specialized in Gothic and Renaissance arts and crafts (not weaponry); he will confirm the proportional rule.
It is, among others, due to this rule that we intuitively recognize a period object.

m