An immense Khyber sword

Stasa Katz · 21st June 2012, 02:15 PM

Someone could write a book or at least a monograph on the subject of how walrus ivory was:

1)First identified as an article of interest,

2) How it became a desirable commodity in Central Asia and Persia/India,

3 Who who the groups and ethnicities were who formed the trading network for it.

That would be a way to frame a narrative and organize a journey that would encompass cultures, histories, and artistic centers--and a discussion of various types of weapons and other utensils for which walrus ivory was used as decoration.

Elephant ivory was an ancient and valuable material, already familiar to artists and connoisseurs. Walrus ivory must have had special appeal as something new and exotic. Would be interesting to know if special properties were ascribed to it, as it reached these Turkic, Persian, Afghan and Indian/Sikh/Moghul areas.

From the Far North to Central Asia and into North India - what a journey. What was the human and cultural chain of contact?

And it would be interesting to figure out how early it first appeared at various courts in Central Asia and Persia/India as an artistic medium.

There might have been one emporium that could have played a part: Nizhni-Novgorod, site of a very important trading fair into the 19th Century.

Marquis Alphonse de Custine travelled to the fair at Nijni (his spelling) in 1839. He noted that precious stones were traded there, along with furs of every description, iron goods, tea, kashmir wool and that each commodity area was the size of a city.

Long before, Custine informs us, the fair had taken place on the property of a boyar, Makarieff, and was later transferred to the nearby town of Nizjni

http://books.google.com/books?id=ksg...-1&output=html

Russians, Persians, Kalmucks, Tibetans, Kirghiz, Chinese, all and more came to trade and exchange goods.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ksg...ed=0CBoQ6AEwAg

Am wondering if it was through the medium of the Nijni emporium that this novel and expensive material from the far North (walrus ivory) could have made its way to the courts of the Emirs--and onto the two pesh kabz daggers Mr Ondaatje was so fortunate to find, to love and bring home after his visit to Sindh.

To verify this, we would have to find primary source documents placing Russians in Nijni or the earlier Makrieff fair at the node of the walrus ivory trade route.

Custine while at Niznithat the Russians got much of their wealth producing iron, from mines in the Urals, staffed by convicted prisoners. He describes the iron goods section as being the size of a town.

Final note: Can any iron ore be used to create fine wootz? Or is only ore from certain sources the correct material for true wootz?

Iron production in the Urals began to pick up during the reign of Peter the Great (1680s to 1722) who needed all the Russian made cannon he could get in his war against Charles II of Sweden.

So Russia became a very important source of iron starting in the early to
mid 18 th century.

Would be interesting to do a trace and see any of this Russian produced iron have made its way to smiths who knew how to create wootz steel.

Probably for this one needs metallurgy experts who are friends and have the right lab equipment including a spectrometer.

Trading the metallurgical signatures of various blades would be a great parallel to the work being done on the human genome and how our ancestors have travelled the world.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2012, 03:16 PM

Actually the topic of walrus ivory at least as pertains to Indian arms was dealt with in a chapter by Dr. G.N.Pant in his "Indian Arms and Armour" (1979).

Returning to the regional history of Central Asian areas including Afghanistan which gives outstanding overview of the geopolitical turmoil and tribal interaction is "The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk, I do not recall date of publication.

Most of these topics mentioned have been discussed at length on these pages over the past fifteen years, and the search feature will reveal the discourse and findings often reached. There are a good number of members here who are most impressively versed in the metallurgy of these weapons (I am not one unfortunately

) . We have always tried to include sources and cites in discussions and as a result the search on certain topics will often show the amazing bibliography of references used through these.

Most of the movement of these valuable commodities and materials are of course important in the study of trade routes and cultural interaction throughout history. The study of these venues is also an excellent source for understanding the diffusion of many weapon forms as well as thier development and history, one of the very important aspects of our studies here.

Lew · 21st June 2012, 03:24 PM

John

As far as the Iron ore is concerned only certain areas had clean ore. Most ore had too much sulfur and other contaminants to used to make wootz. I believe that is why wootz fell out of favor it became harder to find clean ore plus it was very labor intensive to forge. Pattern welded blades were a bit less time consuming to make and were probably equal in lateral stress strength as the older wootz sword blades.

Timo Nieminen · 22nd June 2012, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Aubrey

Someone could write a book or at least a monograph on the subject of how walrus ivory was:

1)First identified as an article of interest,

2) How it became a desirable commodity in Central Asia and Persia/India,

3 Who who the groups and ethnicities were who formed the trading network for it.

It's an old trade, medieval or older. I don't know any modern papers/books, but the topic has been covered:

Arabic and Chinese Trade in Walrus and Narwhal Ivory
Berthold Laufer and Paul Pelliot
T'oung Pao , Second Series, Vol. 14, No. 3 (1913), pp. 315-370
Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4526349

Supplementary Notes on Walrus and Narwhal Ivory
Berthold Laufer
T'oung Pao , Second Series, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Jul., 1916), pp. 348-389
Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4526501

... and perhaps there is something in Laufer's book, Ivory in China (freely available at http://archive.org/details/ivoryinchina21lauf ).

Stasa Katz · 22nd June 2012, 02:05 PM

And yes, the internet, well used, is a marvel.

Thank you again..

spiral · 22nd June 2012, 02:57 PM

Walrus ivory was collected in Greenland etc. & traded by the Vikings to the main european trading centres at least.

There are so many references to this, Ill leave any one interested to find them.

As an unsupported supposition its known that the Vikings traveled & traded to the Middle east, North Africa & deep into Russia at the very least, so its possible there standard trade item of walrus tusks could have also spread into those parts.

spiral

21st June 2012, 02:15 PM	#1
Stasa Katz Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 18	Walrus Ivory as Grip Material Someone could write a book or at least a monograph on the subject of how walrus ivory was: 1)First identified as an article of interest, 2) How it became a desirable commodity in Central Asia and Persia/India, 3 Who who the groups and ethnicities were who formed the trading network for it. That would be a way to frame a narrative and organize a journey that would encompass cultures, histories, and artistic centers--and a discussion of various types of weapons and other utensils for which walrus ivory was used as decoration. Elephant ivory was an ancient and valuable material, already familiar to artists and connoisseurs. Walrus ivory must have had special appeal as something new and exotic. Would be interesting to know if special properties were ascribed to it, as it reached these Turkic, Persian, Afghan and Indian/Sikh/Moghul areas. From the Far North to Central Asia and into North India - what a journey. What was the human and cultural chain of contact? And it would be interesting to figure out how early it first appeared at various courts in Central Asia and Persia/India as an artistic medium. There might have been one emporium that could have played a part: Nizhni-Novgorod, site of a very important trading fair into the 19th Century. Marquis Alphonse de Custine travelled to the fair at Nijni (his spelling) in 1839. He noted that precious stones were traded there, along with furs of every description, iron goods, tea, kashmir wool and that each commodity area was the size of a city. Long before, Custine informs us, the fair had taken place on the property of a boyar, Makarieff, and was later transferred to the nearby town of Nizjni http://books.google.com/books?id=ksg...-1&output=html Russians, Persians, Kalmucks, Tibetans, Kirghiz, Chinese, all and more came to trade and exchange goods. http://books.google.com/books?id=ksg...ed=0CBoQ6AEwAg Am wondering if it was through the medium of the Nijni emporium that this novel and expensive material from the far North (walrus ivory) could have made its way to the courts of the Emirs--and onto the two pesh kabz daggers Mr Ondaatje was so fortunate to find, to love and bring home after his visit to Sindh. To verify this, we would have to find primary source documents placing Russians in Nijni or the earlier Makrieff fair at the node of the walrus ivory trade route. Custine while at Niznithat the Russians got much of their wealth producing iron, from mines in the Urals, staffed by convicted prisoners. He describes the iron goods section as being the size of a town. Final note: Can any iron ore be used to create fine wootz? Or is only ore from certain sources the correct material for true wootz? Iron production in the Urals began to pick up during the reign of Peter the Great (1680s to 1722) who needed all the Russian made cannon he could get in his war against Charles II of Sweden. So Russia became a very important source of iron starting in the early to mid 18 th century. Would be interesting to do a trace and see any of this Russian produced iron have made its way to smiths who knew how to create wootz steel. Probably for this one needs metallurgy experts who are friends and have the right lab equipment including a spectrometer. Trading the metallurgical signatures of various blades would be a great parallel to the work being done on the human genome and how our ancestors have travelled the world. Last edited by John Aubrey; 21st June 2012 at 02:34 PM. Reason: spell correct

22nd June 2012, 02:05 PM	#5
Stasa Katz Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 18	Thank you for the references And yes, the internet, well used, is a marvel. Thank you again..

21st June 2012, 03:16 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,571	Actually the topic of walrus ivory at least as pertains to Indian arms was dealt with in a chapter by Dr. G.N.Pant in his "Indian Arms and Armour" (1979). Returning to the regional history of Central Asian areas including Afghanistan which gives outstanding overview of the geopolitical turmoil and tribal interaction is "The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk, I do not recall date of publication. Most of these topics mentioned have been discussed at length on these pages over the past fifteen years, and the search feature will reveal the discourse and findings often reached. There are a good number of members here who are most impressively versed in the metallurgy of these weapons (I am not one unfortunately ) . We have always tried to include sources and cites in discussions and as a result the search on certain topics will often show the amazing bibliography of references used through these. Most of the movement of these valuable commodities and materials are of course important in the study of trade routes and cultural interaction throughout history. The study of these venues is also an excellent source for understanding the diffusion of many weapon forms as well as thier development and history, one of the very important aspects of our studies here.

21st June 2012, 03:24 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	John As far as the Iron ore is concerned only certain areas had clean ore. Most ore had too much sulfur and other contaminants to used to make wootz. I believe that is why wootz fell out of favor it became harder to find clean ore plus it was very labor intensive to forge. Pattern welded blades were a bit less time consuming to make and were probably equal in lateral stress strength as the older wootz sword blades.

22nd June 2012, 02:57 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Walrus ivory was collected in Greenland etc. & traded by the Vikings to the main european trading centres at least. There are so many references to this, Ill leave any one interested to find them. As an unsupported supposition its known that the Vikings traveled & traded to the Middle east, North Africa & deep into Russia at the very least, so its possible there standard trade item of walrus tusks could have also spread into those parts. spiral