New Keris/Keris baru

ariel · 20th June 2012, 01:06 AM

Keris #2

ariel · 20th June 2012, 01:15 AM

Keris #3

ariel · 20th June 2012, 01:17 AM

Keris #3 additional pics

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2012, 04:58 AM

Thanks Ariel.

I'll post a comment or two as soon as I have time.

Please address me as Alan.

Thanks.

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2012, 09:12 AM

Post 94

keris is probably Madura sepuh (old Madura), dress Jogja branggah ( or ladrangan).

Tidy it up a little bit and this would be a pretty decent keris

Post 95

There is no full length photo of the keris or the scabbard

To comment accurately on keris from photos is very difficult, we need to see the keris full length + close up of the sorsoran (the blade base as far as the first luk), and we need to see the scabbard full length. Additional close ups can be useful, but without those full length pics we're only making even wilder guesses than are usual.

Here is my wild guess for post 95, which I might change if I see a couple of full length pics.

This is a dealer's montage. The top of the scabbard (atasan) is a Solo gayaman, but the motif on the pendok is a Jogja motif, I can't see the full pendok, but my bet is that its a Jogja pendok. We do not fit Jogja pendok to Solo scabbard. The hilt looks like some sort of Peninsula or Sumatera or Bugis hilt, I do not have sufficient knowledge of variation in this hilt style to comment accurately. The material might be shell, which would make it pretty desirable. The cup under the hilt ( I hesitate to call it a pendongkok) is totally incorrect, it doesn't belong here. It was probably made in East Jawa.
The keris itself (ie, the blade) looks like it might be pretty OK. From what I can see I'm guessing Pajajaran. Clean it, stain it, give it a decent set of clothes. If the hilt is shell, clean and mount as a cabinet piece, by itself.

Post 96

Another dealer's montage.

In spite of the crack this is a nice hilt. The hilt cup does not belong with this hilt. I'd suggest that you demount the hilt, give it a good hand rub with baby oil, and mount as a cabinet piece. Hilt is Madura of course, but it displays both Sumenep and Pamekesan characteristics, I'd need to think about this a bit before I committed myself on origin.
The atasan of the wrongko looks like somebody's idea of a Palembang atasan, the pendok is Central Jawa it has a Jogja motif, might be Jogja, might be Banyumas, need to see it full length, but whatever it is it does not belong with this scabbard or hilt.
The keris itself is possibly old Madura ( Madura Sepuh) and not bad.

The two keris in posts 95 and 96 should be stripped of their dress and given new decent quality scabbards and hilts. They are worth treating with a modicum of respect.
The keris in post 94 just needs a little bit of tidying up.

I do appreciate that you made an effort to give me pics I could work with Ariel, but those full length shots are essential.:- full length blade, full length scabbard, close up of sorsoran, camera at 90 degrees to subject; hilts can be difficult, because a Jogja hilt and a Solo hilt can easily be confused if the side profile cannot be clearly seen, with figural hilts we need to be able to see the front and side, possibly a front three-quarter shot is the most useful.

Actually, these three keris are nice start for a collection. It is not at all unusual for the various component parts of a full keris to be mixed as two of yours are. About the only way to avoid this is to buy from specialist dealers, and even then some incorrect mixing can occur, mostly to satisfy the whims of buyers.

ariel · 21st June 2012, 11:17 AM

Dear Alan,
Many thanks!
More questions:

- How does one recognize hilt material as "shell"? I am mostly into Islamic ( broadly speaking) swords and have never seen shell handle. Any specific features I should be looking for? How to clean it properly?

- Cleaning the blades. Even I understand that sandpaper is an absolute no-no :-) Would toothbrush with WD-40 be sufficient? How to stain them afterwards? Not arsenic, I hope?

- Based on what you see ( or any new pics, if needed), the condition of the blades, styles etc, any wild guess how old they might be?

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2012, 02:45 PM

The "shell" used for keris hilts is the thick base section of giant clam. It is heavy, like stone, hard, white, dead cold in the hand. It is far heavier than ivory or bone or denatured antler.

To clean it depends on what is making it dirty. I usually start by rubbing with baby oil and work up from there to more volatile substances. You do need a bit of experience to understand what will help and what will hinder, but you've probably already got this from working on other weapons.

There have been thousands of words written in this forum on how to clean and stain keris blades. I don't know where all the threads are, but probably somebody who keeps notes will be able to help. Sorry, I don't keep any record or note of anything I just answer each matter as it arises.

Ariel, with keris we really don't talk in terms of "how old", we talk in terms of "classification", or "tangguh". Most people like to use the tangguh system as representative of age, and to a limited degree this can work, but the further back in time that we move from today, the less realistic is the estimate of age. I am not prepared to give an estimate of age on any of your keris, except to say that they are old. They are not "good keris", as has often been discussed here, but they are very solid examples that could form the basis of a serious collection.

tunggulametung · 22nd June 2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

How does one recognize hilt material as "shell"?

please search for tridacna, it might help, it has been discussed several times here

20th June 2012, 01:06 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Keris #2 Attached Images

21st June 2012, 11:17 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dear Alan, Many thanks! More questions: - How does one recognize hilt material as "shell"? I am mostly into Islamic ( broadly speaking) swords and have never seen shell handle. Any specific features I should be looking for? How to clean it properly? - Cleaning the blades. Even I understand that sandpaper is an absolute no-no :-) Would toothbrush with WD-40 be sufficient? How to stain them afterwards? Not arsenic, I hope? - Based on what you see ( or any new pics, if needed), the condition of the blades, styles etc, any wild guess how old they might be? Last edited by ariel; 21st June 2012 at 11:46 AM.

20th June 2012, 01:15 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Keris #3 Attached Images

20th June 2012, 01:17 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Keris #3 additional pics Attached Images

21st June 2012, 04:58 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thanks Ariel. I'll post a comment or two as soon as I have time. Please address me as Alan. Thanks.

21st June 2012, 09:12 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Post 94 keris is probably Madura sepuh (old Madura), dress Jogja branggah ( or ladrangan). Tidy it up a little bit and this would be a pretty decent keris Post 95 There is no full length photo of the keris or the scabbard To comment accurately on keris from photos is very difficult, we need to see the keris full length + close up of the sorsoran (the blade base as far as the first luk), and we need to see the scabbard full length. Additional close ups can be useful, but without those full length pics we're only making even wilder guesses than are usual. Here is my wild guess for post 95, which I might change if I see a couple of full length pics. This is a dealer's montage. The top of the scabbard (atasan) is a Solo gayaman, but the motif on the pendok is a Jogja motif, I can't see the full pendok, but my bet is that its a Jogja pendok. We do not fit Jogja pendok to Solo scabbard. The hilt looks like some sort of Peninsula or Sumatera or Bugis hilt, I do not have sufficient knowledge of variation in this hilt style to comment accurately. The material might be shell, which would make it pretty desirable. The cup under the hilt ( I hesitate to call it a pendongkok) is totally incorrect, it doesn't belong here. It was probably made in East Jawa. The keris itself (ie, the blade) looks like it might be pretty OK. From what I can see I'm guessing Pajajaran. Clean it, stain it, give it a decent set of clothes. If the hilt is shell, clean and mount as a cabinet piece, by itself. Post 96 Another dealer's montage. In spite of the crack this is a nice hilt. The hilt cup does not belong with this hilt. I'd suggest that you demount the hilt, give it a good hand rub with baby oil, and mount as a cabinet piece. Hilt is Madura of course, but it displays both Sumenep and Pamekesan characteristics, I'd need to think about this a bit before I committed myself on origin. The atasan of the wrongko looks like somebody's idea of a Palembang atasan, the pendok is Central Jawa it has a Jogja motif, might be Jogja, might be Banyumas, need to see it full length, but whatever it is it does not belong with this scabbard or hilt. The keris itself is possibly old Madura ( Madura Sepuh) and not bad. The two keris in posts 95 and 96 should be stripped of their dress and given new decent quality scabbards and hilts. They are worth treating with a modicum of respect. The keris in post 94 just needs a little bit of tidying up. I do appreciate that you made an effort to give me pics I could work with Ariel, but those full length shots are essential.:- full length blade, full length scabbard, close up of sorsoran, camera at 90 degrees to subject; hilts can be difficult, because a Jogja hilt and a Solo hilt can easily be confused if the side profile cannot be clearly seen, with figural hilts we need to be able to see the front and side, possibly a front three-quarter shot is the most useful. Actually, these three keris are nice start for a collection. It is not at all unusual for the various component parts of a full keris to be mixed as two of yours are. About the only way to avoid this is to buy from specialist dealers, and even then some incorrect mixing can occur, mostly to satisfy the whims of buyers.

21st June 2012, 02:45 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The "shell" used for keris hilts is the thick base section of giant clam. It is heavy, like stone, hard, white, dead cold in the hand. It is far heavier than ivory or bone or denatured antler. To clean it depends on what is making it dirty. I usually start by rubbing with baby oil and work up from there to more volatile substances. You do need a bit of experience to understand what will help and what will hinder, but you've probably already got this from working on other weapons. There have been thousands of words written in this forum on how to clean and stain keris blades. I don't know where all the threads are, but probably somebody who keeps notes will be able to help. Sorry, I don't keep any record or note of anything I just answer each matter as it arises. Ariel, with keris we really don't talk in terms of "how old", we talk in terms of "classification", or "tangguh". Most people like to use the tangguh system as representative of age, and to a limited degree this can work, but the further back in time that we move from today, the less realistic is the estimate of age. I am not prepared to give an estimate of age on any of your keris, except to say that they are old. They are not "good keris", as has often been discussed here, but they are very solid examples that could form the basis of a serious collection.